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Topic: Need new speakers...

James N. Savage 3
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1375
From: Washington, DC
Registered: Jul 2003

posted May 25, 2013 07:22 AM

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Hi-

For many years I've been using a pair of tower speakers (JVC SP-333), which has produced great sound for super 8 movies. Due to old water damage, the wooden cabinets are coming apart and I'm afraid after over 20 years of use, its time to find some new speakers.

I'm hoping some of the audio experts here could recommend a good pair for me to buy. They don't have to be quite as good as the SP333's, in fact, I'd like some a little smaller. Analog of course, 8 ohm, bass reflex prefered.

I'm hoping not to go over $300 for a pair, new or used.

ANY advise would be very much appreciated!

Thanks in advance!

James.

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Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted May 25, 2013 08:16 AM

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James, I have had good success with a pair of Bose 201 series bookshelf speakers. They have excellent acoustics, and are great general purpose speakers that seem to work very well with super 8 sound. Each speaker has a 6.5 ins woofer and a 2.25 ins tweeter, 8 ohms impedance, and they are rated for 60 watts per channel. They measure 15ins x 10 ins x 8ins deep and weigh 12 lbs each, and I sit mine on a couple of wooden speaker stands on the sides of the screen. They sell for about $115.00 each at Best Buy. I also have Bose center channel and rear surround speakers, but for 8mm sound you obviously don't need them. You can spend a fortune on speakers if you want to, but these Bose speakers do a wonderful job at a great price. And they are made in the USA.

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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James N. Savage 3
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1375
From: Washington, DC
Registered: Jul 2003

posted May 29, 2013 12:21 PM

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Paul-

Thanks so much for the advise! I have a Best Buy near the house and I will be checking that out very soon.

Thanks again!

James

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Julian Baquero
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 165
From: Bogota, Colombia
Registered: Mar 2011

posted May 30, 2013 06:13 AM

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BOSE sucks, they are really low performance at a very high price, just Google it, probably the worst value for money arround. If your budget is limited go for something like Polk, Cerwin Vega JBL or Klipsch, if your budget is ample go for B&W, PSB, Paradigm or KEF. Just take a look at the impendance of the speakers to match them correctly and go for higher sensitivity, which means more sound output with lower power.

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James N. Savage 3
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1375
From: Washington, DC
Registered: Jul 2003

posted May 30, 2013 12:16 PM

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Thanks for your imput Julian.

Wow, I don't ever think I've heard anyone say "BOSE sucks"! Most people speak highly of BOSE. I generaly prefer the older pre-Bose speakers (70's-80's), just because I deal with older equipment, and it just seems right to hook them to older speakers (Am I being crazy here?).

In searching the internet, it seems that some folks are really trying to cash-in on older audio equipment these days, and some of the prices are just plain rediculous for a used item.

I remember using a pair of Radio Shack "Base Reflex" speakers in the 70's that sounded great for film. They were under $100 at that time. I wonder if any of those are still around.

Thanks again guys for your input, and any more advise is welcome. [Wink]

[Wink]

James.

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted May 30, 2013 12:32 PM

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I inherited my Dad's speakers, but the foam surrounds on the woofers were shot. I found a kit that provides new surrounds and instructions on how to fix a speaker and the fix went really well.

So believe it or not I'm on a minor quest for a really good pair of dead speakers right now!

--------------------
All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Hugh Thompson Scott
Film God

Posts: 3063
From: Gt. Clifton,Cumbria,England
Registered: Jan 2012

posted May 30, 2013 12:46 PM

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As I understand it,Hi Fi speakers are not generally suited to reproduction of stripe sound,as they tend to show up the shortcomings of the recording by amplifying the wrong part, like
hiss etc. The general rule of thumb for speakers in cine was the bigger the magnet,the better the sound.
So even a cheap speaker with a big enough magnet, should give good results.

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

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From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted May 30, 2013 01:33 PM

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Usually when I get hiss I give the tone control a slight twist and it goes away.

(hiss! BOOOO!!!!)

Part of the problem with using really good speakers with a movie sound track (especially an old one) is Human hearing (really GOOD hearing, not mine) can go all the way up to 20 kHz, so really good audio components do too.

An old sound track doesn't venture much further North than 10 kHz, and for example the GS-1200 cuts off at 12.5 kHz, so you have this whole frequency band the rest of the way to 20 that's good for nothing but noise.

I built a little interface box between my projectors and stereo that rolls off above 10 kHz to avoid this, but based on the fact that it sees action with a GS now and then, I'm thinking of pushing this limit a little higher.

--------------------
All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Graham Ritchie
Film God

Posts: 4001
From: New Zealand
Registered: Feb 2006

posted May 30, 2013 07:50 PM

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I would look for some second hand speakers each with a single 7-10 inch 8ohm speaker inside. Out here there is an abunbance of old speakers in junk/pawn shops you can get for only a few $$$ dollars, all my speakers came from such places and they work fine. [Smile]

[Smile]

Graham

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Donald Brown
Junior
Posts: 3
From: Marblehead,Ohio
Registered: Apr 2012

posted May 31, 2013 06:39 PM

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Try boise boat speaker they are small. Are for outdoors use and are reasonbly priced and can be left outside all year and sound good. Good luck let the movie roll.

--------------------
Donald Brown

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Lee Mannering
Film God

Posts: 3216
From: The Projection Box
Registered: Nov 2006

posted May 31, 2013 08:53 PM

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I'm still using my rather rare Eumig stereo matched pair, but within the UK the WHARFEDALE DIAMOND 9.0 are good and around £50 for a pair of 5* rated talkies. I should prob upgrade the old Eumigs after so long I guess..

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Julian Baquero
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 165
From: Bogota, Colombia
Registered: Mar 2011

posted June 01, 2013 04:20 AM

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Vintage speakers have the great advantage of being more sensitive than modern ones, pre solid state amps couldn't deliver tons of watts so speaker had to give a lot of output with little input. Companies like Jensen and Altec used to make Alnico magnets, this magnets made great drivers for speakers, today for several reasons they are very expensive and hard to find. People will pay a lot of money for a Marantz, McIntosh or Scott classic tube amps. Finally after decades of solid state people have become aware that most solid state (not all) sound is really bad.

When I need to project to a large audience I use a guitar amp. 16mm and S8 film sound tracks are not really HiFi best case is 12kHz and a lot of noise, the amp has its own equalizer that helps, take any buzz or hum away and enhance voice or music.

I have a HiFi buisness and Bose is the HiFi joke everywhere. It's just about marketing and make believe, very dishonest.

Just for a laugh take a look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCBe7-6rw4M

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Hugh Thompson Scott
Film God

Posts: 3063
From: Gt. Clifton,Cumbria,England
Registered: Jan 2012

posted June 01, 2013 05:48 AM

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I have a pair of Goodman speakers,but wouldn't consider them
for cine. I get good results from my Craven cine speaker and
the B&H Speaker for 16mm.Probably the reason they use disc
for sound at the BBFC is because the stripe sound at high levels
isn't good enough.

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Claus Harding
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1149
From: Washington DC
Registered: Oct 2006

posted June 01, 2013 08:36 AM

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Old saying: "No highs, no lows, it must be Bose" [Big Grin]

[Big Grin]

Don't price yourself into the worst possible corner by
1. Wanting Bose
2. Buying in a store like Best Buy.

Consider pro monitoring speakers (mid-fields.) My main "Hi-Fi" speakers as well as the one I use for film are Samson self-powered monitors. While they are not top of the line, they do deliver.

They come in three sizes with differing power output and unless you are doing a huge hall, they have plenty of juice.

There are volume and "brightness" audio controls on the back and all you have to do is run a line output from your projector and let the speakers do the amp work. They take RCA, 1/4-inch plugs or XLRs, so you're covered, no matter how you go.

Claus.

--------------------
"Why are there shots of deserts in a scene that's supposed to take place in Belgium during the winter?" (Review of 'Battle of the Bulge'.)

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Lee Mannering
Film God

Posts: 3216
From: The Projection Box
Registered: Nov 2006

posted June 01, 2013 08:48 AM

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Julian. The manufacturer names you mention are certainly names to conger with and cooking with gas as we used to say over here! My first Eumig in the 70’s was blessed with my home constructed speaker box and dual concentric speaker…Joy. Thankfully things have moved on and given today’s choice would go for the 9’s from Richer sounds at only £50 for a stereo projector with some good quality cables and gold plated plugs to avoid oxidisation. Bose are today really expensive and for 8mm perhaps excessive, but my goodness they are very high quality speakers. When purchasing my last pair of talkers the hi-fi shop was amazed I was still using the SME tone arm with Suprex moving coil in it… it must be a Eumig thing. Getting back to the point we need to remember the limits of 8mm stripe, but this doesn’t stop us getting the best from it.
If you live in the UK Richer Sounds have the Wharfdale 9's on offer at only £50 and if you are mono only share a speaker with a friend. These speakers were 5* rated winners.

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted June 01, 2013 10:52 AM

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This is great!

This is the most passionate thread we've had here since last week's popcorn discussion!

--------------------
All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted June 01, 2013 11:23 AM

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I had no idea my Bose speakers were junk. They sound great to me! [Confused]

[Confused]

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted June 01, 2013 12:54 PM

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Paul,

If they sound great to you they aren't junk!

I've been messing around with audio quite a bit these last few years and something I've learned about it is it's one of the most subjective offshoots of electrical engineering I've ever encountered! A Volt is a Volt, and an Amp is an Amp.."good" sound is most often in the ear of the beholder rather than a hard measurement.

We all hear differently and all like different things.

That's why one person's music is another person's "Turn that crap OFF!"

--------------------
All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Hugh Thompson Scott
Film God

Posts: 3063
From: Gt. Clifton,Cumbria,England
Registered: Jan 2012

posted June 01, 2013 03:16 PM

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That does remind me Steve of my ol' dad one Sunday morning
while I was playing Black Sabbath Vol.4 at high volume. His little
knee was going like hell in time with the music, while telling me
"For Christ's sake turn it down!"

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted June 01, 2013 03:50 PM

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My own Dad was mostly into classical music. His love for popular music ended roughly at the end of the Big Band era. His feelings towards my sister's and my music kept the two of us in headphones for years!

Still the same, I learned a lot about music from growing up in the same house with his stereo and I don't think I could appreciate a set of speakers more than the set of his I restored to health and put back to work.

--------------------
All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Hugh Thompson Scott
Film God

Posts: 3063
From: Gt. Clifton,Cumbria,England
Registered: Jan 2012

posted June 02, 2013 01:38 PM

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Sounds like you're very gifted in that field Steve,and in this hobby
that has got to be a winner.My dad too liked his classical music,
but on hearing "Tubular Bells" & some of Rick Wakeman's stuff
conceded, "it's nice to know some of these long haired buggers can write nice music when they want"

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Matt McBride
Film Handler

Posts: 62
From: Starkville, MS USA
Registered: Oct 2012

posted June 02, 2013 03:36 PM

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Steve is right about sound. It all depends on what the person listing can hear. There are a lot of people that like bose and there are a lot of people that don't. One of the major disadvantages they have is they use paper filaments, at least they used to. At any rate what this means in long term is they will deteriorate faster and will start to sound like junk. They don't do hi's and low's well either which becomes an issue with movies especially film. However if you are only using 8mm or 16mm it probably won't make much of a difference. It won't be until you get to 35mm with digital sound or a blu-ray player.

You can get some great sound out of various home theater markets, some have been mentioned already such as Klipsch. I myself am starting to get into professional audio especially since I delve into 35mm too. That is a whole other ball of wax, but you can get some great sound out of that. If that is the case I'd go for JBL or QSC.

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Lee Mannering
Film God

Posts: 3216
From: The Projection Box
Registered: Nov 2006

posted June 02, 2013 07:35 PM

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And dare we mention Quadrophonic?

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Claus Harding
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1149
From: Washington DC
Registered: Oct 2006

posted June 03, 2013 06:06 AM

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In connection with all this, the one thing that complements good film sound is an equalizer. Then you can really tailor the soundtrack to make your speakers sound their best with a given film.
I know some of you guys already do that, but...just to throw in the importance of good tone controls [Smile]

[Smile]

I know I am ragging on Bose, but over the last few years they have turned into wildly overpriced "boutique" items, truly the triumph of marketing.

Claus.

--------------------
"Why are there shots of deserts in a scene that's supposed to take place in Belgium during the winter?" (Review of 'Battle of the Bulge'.)

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Bill Brandenstein
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: California
Registered: Aug 2007

posted June 06, 2013 02:07 PM

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Years ago I heard one of the most impressive audiophile speaker demonstrations in my life with... Bose speakers. It was a full range system with a REAL subwoofer, not one of these little boxes intended to replace a basic woofer. So Steve, I think you're right on the money that the right classic system would outperform current "hi-fi" speakers.

I'll give Bose high marks for (in some cases) bending the laws of physics a little, but if you want accurate or truly full-range sound, I agree to stay well clear of them.

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