8mm Forum: Best type of camera for film transfer?

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Topic: Best type of camera for film transfer?

Dan Red
Junior
Posts: 9
From: Ventura, California
Registered: Jun 2014

posted June 19, 2014 01:10 AM

Does anybody have any suggestions about what camera would be the best to transfer old film?

I used to use standard resolution 4:3 cameras with the 3CCD designation (Sony VX-2000). The transfers looked good.

In an effort to make the transferred footage look even better, I have been using a variety of different HD cameras including a 3CCD (Sony FX1) and have to say the old standard res camera ended up producing better results. Weird? Does anybody know why?

Graininess:
The transfers end up looking a little more dark and grainy. I have read that the old standard-def cameras are often better in low light. I have read that the old VX-2000 is better in low light than the newer FX1. Will just getting a brighter projector be a quick fix to my low light issue?

Digitally changing the ratio aspect:
Since old 8mm film is shot in 4:3 ratio I end up dropping the captured 16:9 HD footage into a Final Cut Pro project that is set up for 4:3. I then have to drag the corner out to avoid the “Pillar Box” effect. By doing this the footage doesn’t look as clean. I don’t know why? Any thoughts?

Thank you in advance for your help!
[Smile]

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Martin Jones
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1269
From: Thetford , Norfolk,England
Registered: May 2008

posted June 19, 2014 01:45 AM

My advice is to stick to the 3 CCD 4:3 camera if you like the result .... I use a Panasonic 3 CCD CCTV camera for preference, having explored the others (including Machine Vision cameras).
Keep the ratio at 4:3 in the finished disc so it presents on a 16:9 screen with black either side.

In other words, don't mess with digital manipulation of aspect ratio; show it as it was shot!

From your post I assume you are capturing a "projected" picture.
It may help if you are able capture straight off the film itself: PM or email me if you want to know more about this.

Martin

--------------------
Retired TV Service Engineer
Ongoing interest in Telecine....

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted June 19, 2014 12:06 PM

The Elmo ST1200 is Super 8mm only. Most sound projectors will be Super 8 only. There are some Eumig dual 8 sound machines. If you like the Kodak Moviedeck, I have the 265 model and the Supermatic 20. These both play variable speed Super 8 sound/silent and Regular 8 silent. You will want a variable speed projector to remove flicker. I know the Elmo ST800 has internal speed adjustment pots... but not sure about the ST1200. The Sankyo 600 has internal speed adjustment and is nice for transfers. If you can find a variable speed sound projector with external adjustment like the Moviedeck that would be even better. One that comes to mind is the Bell & Howell 11XJ. There are others.

You want less light... not more light. This is particularly true if you are recording directly off the film as Martin is suggesting. You can always adjust the levels after capture in your video editor.

--------------------
Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Dan Red
Junior
Posts: 9
From: Ventura, California
Registered: Jun 2014

posted June 19, 2014 11:36 PM

Janice indicated that I should be considering less (projector) light as opposed to more light. Is this to keep the darks darker and the lights lighter?

I also like Martin’s advice of just sticking with the old Standard Resolution 3 CCD camera. With some more research it turns out that my 10 year old Sony VX-2000 can record better in low light than my new Sony FX1…. And as far as reverting back to Standard Def instead of High Def… the 16:9 needed to be digitally manipulated in post causing it to look worse than the Standard Res captured footage.

I am indeed capturing a projected picture. Capturing strait off the film is something I still need to research. It sounds very time intensive and expensive.

Any suggestions are greatly appreciated!

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted June 20, 2014 01:31 AM

As far as the light goes Dan. When you are using a projection method as you are...you will find that the whites will get blown out on your image and you will lose detail. These are called "hotspots". You can also get a "halo" effect. You can control exposure with your camera to lighten darker images and also with the levels and brightness and contrast features in your video editor.

What are you projecting your image onto? A screen...a wall...a piece of white paper or card? What size is the image you are projecting?

[ June 20, 2014, 10:20 AM: Message edited by: Janice Glesser ]

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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James E. Stubbs
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 104
From: Portland, OR
Registered: Apr 2007

posted June 21, 2014 09:18 PM

While there's certainly nothing wrong with using an HD camera to transfer your film, this isn't the first time I've heard HD not looking as good as SD. HD transfers are a lot trickier. Pretty much everyone I know who's built their own HD transfer devices are using machine vision cameras for their high level of flexibility in exposure, shutter, and aspect ratio adjustments both via firmware and computer based software. Chin uses regular Canons and Sony 3MP HD cameras for his Elmo Based "Focuscan" machines. There's more information available on the filmshooting forum as it's geared more toward shooting and transferring super 8. Ceteris paribus I still use my SD Sony DV cam as it has a doc which allows me to pass the signal directly to the puter.
Cheers,

--------------------
James E. Stubbs
Consultant, Vagabond, Traveler.

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Dan Red
Junior
Posts: 9
From: Ventura, California
Registered: Jun 2014

posted June 22, 2014 02:32 AM

Thank you again Janice. The “Darker is better” idea makes sense. I just wish my darks scenes didn’t look as grainy.

I used to project onto a screen but I decided to move the camera closer to the screen to get a brighter image into my camra… as a result I have eliminated the screen because of its course texture and am just using a thick matte paper.

The only reason I think my SD footage looked better than my HD is that the old SD camera all do better in lower light. (Less grain.) Im used to my Kodak Movie deck (50w) and look forward to seeing what a LITTLE more brightness might do for my HD camera that need just a lil more light. The Elmo St 1200 has gotten some great reviews on this website and I think it will be fun to play with its brighter bulb. If its to bright I will just move the screen back etc.

Even after the extra work of digitally manipulating the 16:9 footage I think my HD cameras will give me the best clarity.

I like the capture device James recommended. Does anybody know of any specs I can be looking for in a “Machine Vision Camera”

I recognize that James indicated that the “MVC” cameras are good for adjustmenting. I have never had to make any adjustments. No flicker etc.

What is a Sony 3MP Camera. Does 3MP refer to the size of MP’s of the Cmos sensor?... or the amount of sensors in the camera?

Thank you again… this Q&A has lead me to some very interesting research.
[Smile]

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Martin Jones
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1269
From: Thetford , Norfolk,England
Registered: May 2008

posted June 22, 2014 03:37 AM

Machine Vision cameras do not generally lend themselves to being used in the same way as Camcorders. I do not know of anyone who has gained any benefit from using one in a "projected image" setup.
They are usually used in "direct from film" captures in the "frame by frame" method, which is a completely different ball game to your set-up.
It involves specially modified projectors and specialist capture software with sophisticated computer requirements.If you are not looking to spend a lot of money and endless hours in experiments then I suggest you would be unwise to be tempted down that path.
I've been there ..... and I'm back with an ordinary Video Camera and "Direct from Film", because there is little, if any, to be gained from that approach. I've spent years experimenting (I have skills in both electronic and mechanical areas) and it's not an area for the inexperienced or faint-hearted. Even the "specialist" International Forum devoted to experimental development of amateur machines has not had a single post on it in the last 358 days.

However, if you ARE happy to shell out large sums you will find it cheaper in the long run to buy a commercial ready made
machine.

As always,the fruits of my accumulated experiments and experience are available ("off Forum" as this Forum is more for Collectors).

Martin

--------------------
Retired TV Service Engineer
Ongoing interest in Telecine....

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Dan Red
Junior
Posts: 9
From: Ventura, California
Registered: Jun 2014

posted June 22, 2014 06:51 PM

Thank you Martin. You have made some great points and given me some good direction. Direction back toward the way I was previously set up. Projecting onto a screen and capturing the image via a video camera.

Janice has even suggested that I consider just settling on using my old Kodak Moviedecks as opposed to investing in one of the highly touted Elmo 1200’s.

The Moviedecks will likely remain my workhorses for now but I might like to keep my eye out for an Elmo 1200 to help me with some Super 8 sound films I need to transfer. I will be interesting to see how the brighter bulb might effect my projection/capture efforts. Pro/con.

Janice indicated that the Moviedeck line once had a projector equipped with sound… so I will keep an eye out for one of those as well.

I understand that this site/forum is mostly dedicated to film/projector collector/enthusiast. Does anybody know of any resources, websites or forums dedicated to those that want to learn how to produce the best possible 8mm film transfers?
[Smile]

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