8mm Forum: How rare is an Elmo ST-800 Mag & Opt in the U.K.

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Topic: How rare is an Elmo ST-800 Mag & Opt in the U.K.

Barry Attwood
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1411
From: Enfield, U.K.
Registered: Aug 2003

posted August 07, 2014 05:30 AM

How rare is the Elmo ST-800 Magnetic & Optical projector in the U.K., as I've been offered one.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted August 07, 2014 07:46 AM

I think it is quite rare Barry as most you find were magnetic only. Personally I can't think of any advantage this machine would have over the ST1200 models of which there are loads about. So for me personally, I wouldn't bother...100w lamp/ 600ft reel capacity and all.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Barry Attwood
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1411
From: Enfield, U.K.
Registered: Aug 2003

posted August 07, 2014 09:51 AM

Andrew,

It's an 800' machine, as in ST-800, so a little better than the norm.

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted August 07, 2014 10:16 AM

The ST-800 is a great machine, It can put up a nice bright image and great sound, especially through an amp.

I have an ST-1200HD also, and I run them side by side most of the time.

The ST-800 has an electronically regulated DC motor and regulates projection speed better, on the other hand the ST-1200 runs more quietly.

ST-800: motor brushes to wear out, ST-1200: No.

The ST-800 has a faster rewind, on the other hand the ST-1200 has more rewind torque and never stalls with heavy reels.

The ST-1200 is heavier. The ST-800 has a funky line cord which is difficult to replace. The ST-800 is easier to switch 18-24 FPS. The ST-1200 you have to remember to release from threading mode with a 1200 foot reel, but then again you can USE a 1200 foot reel. ST-1200HD is twin track, ST-800: no.

All other things being equal I'd probably go with the ST-1200 because a lot of the wear points in the projection path that are either metal or rollered on the 1200 are plastic on the ST-800 and more subject to wear.

Then again, a mint ST-800 is still a sweet machine. I basically built mine up from the best parts I could round up, and when I only bring one machine, it's the one I choose.

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5895
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007

posted August 07, 2014 10:21 AM

From what's being said, the Super 8 Data Base seems not entirely correct.
http://super8data.com/database/projectors_list/projectors_elmo/elmo_st800mo.htm

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Maurice

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted August 07, 2014 10:55 AM

I've noticed with these two that they react differently to the same films, and both seem to have ones they are more compatible with.

I have a print I got a few years ago that gives all sorts of static discharge clicks and pops on the ST-1200, but it's fine on the ST-800.

The ST-1200 has a very rich bass response, so I prefer it for music tracks, especially classical music like the Fantasia extracts.

-on the other hand my Derann print of Toy Story sounds muddy on the ST-1200. So I need to either show it on the ST-800 (sounds fine) or connect up a graphic equalizer.

Being that I don't like wrestling with the ST-1200's rocker speed control, when I show 18FPS the ST-800 takes over.

The difference in brightness is not that huge. The ST-1200 in "dim" mode is dimmer than the ST-800. "Bright" mode is brighter, but not so much that you'd really notice it if they weren't lit at the same time side by side (This is AFTER I replaced the socket and verified 15VAC at the bulb, BTW)

When they are both showing a multi-reel feature, the change in brightness from one reel to the next doesn't bowl you over.

The difference may be more pronounced at a larger screen size, but I'm not there (-at least not yet.)

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted August 07, 2014 02:32 PM

Appologies, of course it is 800ft reel capacity and not 600ft as I incorrectly stated. The DC motor drive will be an improvement as will the changeover from 18fps to 24fps. This is a real weak point of the ST1200 with its awful clutch arrangement.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted August 07, 2014 02:42 PM

The AC motor is pretty much indestructible, but that two rollers on a see-saw arrangement they chose to make it work as a multi-speed machine is just plain hokey!

If they made it 24FPS only with a direct belt drive and a two bladed shutter, the ST-1200 would pull way out in front.

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted August 07, 2014 02:46 PM

I completely agree Steve , better still an electronically driven swithable DC drive chain like the GS range or the Bauer studioklasse machines.

[ August 08, 2014, 01:38 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted August 07, 2014 02:53 PM

I like the regulated DC motor, but where I'm going here is thinking about longevity.

The DC motor has brushes riding on a commutator and those are naturally subject to wear. The AC motor is brushless, and basically lasts as long as the shaft bearings.

If you'd asked me in 1975, when you could get a set of brushes at any camera shop, I might feel differently.

Then again I was 13 in 1975 and nobody asked me about this stuff!

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted August 07, 2014 05:19 PM

The brushes can be copied very easily Steve. On the Bauer motors, they are so long, they will outlive the motor.

Only DC electronic drives provide any kind of accuracy for film speed in projectors. All AC driven machines are useless for sound transfer work as the speed of the machine fluctuates way too much.

This even includes the otherwise excellent Eumig S938.

[ August 09, 2014, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted August 07, 2014 06:51 PM

Different needs!

I just think back to when the brushes bottomed out in my ST-800 and since I happened to have a new motor on hand the simplest fix was a transplant.

Are Elmo brushes commonly available?

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted August 07, 2014 07:59 PM

I dont think any Elmo parts are commonly available anymore Steve. However, in the UK at least, we are fortunate enough to have companies that will manifacture any size and grade of carbon brush to suit whatever needs. Also many washing machine motor brushes can be filed down to fit many small projector motors. I would imagine with a country as large as yours Steve, finding carbon brushes to suit any application, wouldn't be an issue.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted August 07, 2014 08:36 PM

Yes,

I am seeing companies stateside that do this too.

The thing is there probably isn't any such thing as an Elmo, or Bauer or Eumig motor. Very often companies like these buy off the shelf parts so they don't have to waste their engineering and manufacturing capacity to reinvent something that already exists, is made in the tens of thousands and is established as reliable. (Can Elmo make a better, cheaper motor than General Electric, for example?)

-so it's possible the brushes would be an off the shelf part too, the trick is knowing which one.

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted August 07, 2014 09:54 PM

That old ST 800 motor would make a great starting point to generate yourself a working spare Steve. Simpy remove whats left of the worn out brushes, measure the length and width of the brush. Measure the depth of the brush box (if applicable),
plus tail length, then you can type all that data into the net to find yourself a spare set of brushes giving you a renovated spare motor for your Elmo which otherwise would be nigh on impossible to find!... Result!

Don't be tempted to order very durable brushes with high copper content,as although extremely hard wearing, these will wear down your commutator in no time on these tiny armatures. Better to stick with softer carbon type and then at least it is only the brushes that will need changing.

[ August 08, 2014, 01:45 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Barry Attwood
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1411
From: Enfield, U.K.
Registered: Aug 2003

posted August 08, 2014 03:31 AM

Thanks for all the really interesting replies, but I'm still really no wiser on my original question, of how rare is a Mag/Opt projector in the U.k., have any U.K. forum members got one? If so what's the optical sound like on them!

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Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003

posted August 08, 2014 03:46 AM

Barry, I had one some years ago and I thought it was a great little machine, but if I were you id give Bill Parsons a ring as he will give you an idea how many he has seen in his repair years [Wink]

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted August 08, 2014 04:53 AM

ST800MO is unusual everywhere. I've been following this model ten years and never seen one in person. I haven't seen a lot discussed here or on E-bay either.

ST800M? Quite a few.

The rarity won't get you a lot in terms of a potential resale because this machine doesn't have the collectability of the higher-end machines. It's a basic workhorse machine and not particularly sexy like the ST-1200HD or either of the GSs.

The questions are:

Do you need it?
Does it work?

[ August 08, 2014, 06:36 AM: Message edited by: Steve Klare ]

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5895
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007

posted August 08, 2014 09:54 AM

Barry
Why not pass on it?
It is quite possible that collectors would ignore this model in favour of an ST-1200 HD MO, a much more interesting projector.
That's just my thought.

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Maurice

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Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003

posted August 08, 2014 11:07 AM

I'll give a tenner [Big Grin]

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted August 08, 2014 11:19 AM

Then again, what's the asking price?

One in nice condition is a good, usable machine that if nothing else could take some of the strain off the ones with all the bells and whistles that we really don't need most of the time.

Question is: is it worth the money?

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Barry Attwood
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1411
From: Enfield, U.K.
Registered: Aug 2003

posted August 09, 2014 12:08 AM

Well I've agreed to buy it, but like all my projectors I'll have it serviced by John White (he'll probably know if it's rare too!). it will be with me sometime next week, then onto John, so I'll see what happens.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted August 09, 2014 01:36 AM

Now if it were a Stereo Bauer or Beaulieu, I would have been first in the queue to buy it from you Barry!

Hope it works out to be a good investment for you Barry, plenty of Elmo fans about on here so shouldn't be difficult to sell i wouldn't have thought.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Bill Parsons
Film Handler

Posts: 66
From: Brookland. UK
Registered: Jul 2004

posted August 11, 2014 11:56 AM

Yes the ST-800 mag/opt is pretty rare in the UK, I think I have only come across about 3 of them, the opt sound was as good as the ST1200.

From what I can gather with the Elmo projectors they were nearly always sold as mag/opt in Japan, they certainly all have the screw holes on the chassis for an exciter lamp, the GS 800 even has the mag/opt switch fitted with a blanking off plate in front of it, this in itself is a problem as the switch contacts can give sound problems on magnetic as it obviously never gets pressed.

[ August 11, 2014, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: Bill Parsons ]

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