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Topic: Sound dubbing on Standard 8mm Sound Films

Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted December 07, 2014 12:41 AM

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I have two Standard 8mm sound films that the audio tracks for the most part have been erased. There are sections that still have sound ...but most audio is gone. I was wondering if by chance I could get a copy of the sound tracks, could I re-record over the old track? I've done a lot of audio dubbing and syncing with video on the computer...but never with a film projector. It's a mystery how you guys sync it up.

I have a Eumig 810D and the two films are:
1) Thunder Steam Blue Ridge (Blackhawk 400ft)
2) Berth Marks (Blackhawk 400ft).

Is it worth the effort...or should I just forget about it?

[ December 09, 2014, 10:50 AM: Message edited by: Janice Glesser ]

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
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Timothy Duncan
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 150
From: Russellville, KY, USA
Registered: Sep 2014

posted December 07, 2014 01:59 AM

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I'd like the answer on this too. My B&H has recording capabilities but I don't have a clue on how to use it!

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted December 08, 2014 03:15 PM

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Anybody?

[Smile]

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted December 08, 2014 03:55 PM

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Janice, I don't know a great deal about these particular projectors, but what I will say, is that if the 810D like most Eumigs I have ever seen, has an ac motor and friction based drive, then it is virtually impossible to successfully sync the soundtrack even when using speed adjustable digital sound to sync to the film magnetic stripe.

The only way is to have a sophisticated DC drive circuit and motor. Then using the pitch and tempo controls on Video DJ software, with a little practice, amazing results can be achieved and in glorious stereo for super 8mm!

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Janice Glesser
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From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted December 08, 2014 05:06 PM

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Thanks Andrew for the feedback. That's the info I was searching for. I was also thinking the chances of me finding the exact sound track for these reels would be difficult. Does anyone have anything else to add?

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Dominique De Bast
Film God

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From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Jun 2013

posted December 08, 2014 05:09 PM

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It is technically possible to redubed films as ilms with an English soundtrack have successfully been redubed into French language but I don't know which material is required.

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Dominique

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Jim Schrader
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1628
From: Savage, MN, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted December 08, 2014 08:10 PM

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Janice is the berth marks a laurel & hardy title?

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jim schrader
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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted December 08, 2014 08:27 PM

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Yes Jim ... L&H.

The other one is a train film...just sounds of the engines...I don't remember if there is narration.

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
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Michael De Angelis
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: USA
Registered: Jul 2003

posted December 08, 2014 10:21 PM

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I read books about this topic, and it's achievable providing that modifications can be made to the projector.

Indeed the 810 Eumig models employed the rubber friction platters and over time the material became worn and made the drives difficult to repair.

A hobbyist explained to me that it was possible to achieve sync sound with a Eumig projector. By pairing two magnets side by side onto the motor shaft and placing a reed switch device within proximity to the magnets, would create an electrical field in order to pulse the soundtrack from an external source.

Check out this link:
Sync sound

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted December 09, 2014 03:10 AM

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This would give you a reliable pulse signal Michael this is true, but the problem still arises that AC driven machines simply vary way too much to ever get close to finding a constant sync speed for even one minute of film running time.

I tried to achieve this using the relatively sophisticated Eumig S938 and could never keep a passage of soundtrack in sync at any speed setting for longer than a few seconds. The machine itself really has to have some kind of "Quartz lock" circuitry like the Beaulieu "Fix" setting to have a great chance of success.

Though my VDJ software is very good at keeping up with variations in speed tempo, there is only so much variation it can work with and the S938 proved a step too far in my case. The ST1200's are even worse for speed variations. In their case, for the most part, it is even audible in playback mode with tons of Wow and Flutter just playing back a film let alone trying to record on one!

That is a very interesting article you found there Micheal but I couldn't help notice it was all geared around high end super 8mm equipment including Nizo's and Beaulieu camera's all with crystal sync facilities. I have never heard from anyone who successfully synchronized using Standard 8mm equipment with a friction drive system.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Paul Mason
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Posts: 540
From: Aldershot, Hampshire, UK
Registered: Nov 2013

posted December 09, 2014 04:56 AM

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You need to use old technology to control the speed of induction motor or universal motor projectors. Devices such as the Craven Synchrodek, Transync, Contronics and Cresta Super Sim-Sync basically use pulses derived from the projector to control the voltage to the projector motor automatically. Unfortunately these synchronisers are hard to find nowadays. I would suggest a manual method using the pulses to trigger a bright LED lamp that flashes on the sprocket wheel or film perforation and manually adjust the projector speed (with a power controller or voltage regulator). I haven't tried this myself and you need some electronics knowledge.

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Paul.

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Gary Crawford
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Manassas, VA. USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted December 09, 2014 07:17 AM

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I will try and record the sound for berth marks for you and I've actually been able to achieve decent results, syncing up soundtracks from tape onto film...but it's very much trial and error, stop and start....back and forth. Not sure it's worth the time it would take... I can't remember very well, but the soundtrack on my print of Berth Marks doesn't have music in the background....and if so, that makes it a LOt easier to sync things up....if things drift...you can go back, find a silent spot and start from there fresh....until it drifts again. But all in all...I'd think for the time involved, you'd be just as well buying a Super 8 print on ebay or from one of the people here...and using the time you'd save for something else.

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Martin Jones
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From: Thetford , Norfolk,England
Registered: May 2008

posted December 09, 2014 08:37 AM

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My 810D exhibits a remarkably constant speed when running film (I monitor it with a frequency Counter driven from an Encoder on the main shaft to 1\100 frame per second) when I'm using it to transfer to Video at 16.667 fps. I adjust it manually using a thyristor controller, which is surprisingly easy to do.
That's not really a problem, but getting the sound and picture in sync could be. You would need a recording taken from a film at a KNOWN, CONSTANT, projector running speed, recorded from a start mark on the film on a constant speed recorder, replayed on the same recorder, recorded on a projector running at the SAME speed as the original playback. As long as the Donor film and the Recipient film are EXACTLY the same length with NO editing differences or lost content, you could achieve it MANUALLY using a common sync point at the beginning of both films.
If your speed difference,"uncontrolled", was as much as 1\10 fps,the error in a 30 minute film at 24 fps would be as much as
7 1\2 seconds by the end of the film!

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Retired TV Service Engineer
Ongoing interest in Telecine....

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted December 09, 2014 09:32 AM

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The fact you have technically monitored this projector and found it to be good for speed stability is encouraging for Janice I would say Martin.

Any minor discrepancies can be catered for as said, using modern digital video software and controllers so long as a frame perfect replica soundtrack can be found.

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Michael De Angelis
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: USA
Registered: Jul 2003

posted December 09, 2014 10:39 AM

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I never realized the complexity in syncing sound to a projector. Thank you for providing the details that are required to achieve optimum results.

It's difficult to locate a print of Birth Marks that only has a dead track at the beginning and the end of the story. The only exception of sound is the conductor announcing the train station stops and the dialog between the boys, that has a different sound effect when Stan gets clunked in the head.

May I mention that there is some dialog in the film and the background sound is the clicking of the train tracks and various sound effects.

[ December 09, 2014, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: Michael De Angelis ]

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Bill Phelps
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From: USA
Registered: Jan 2009

posted December 09, 2014 11:19 AM

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I have a sound version of the train film...but I am still trying to get a soundtrack to David O for many months now (of different film) but still trying....Janice, I can make you a analog copy on cassette or reel to reel, but digital or MP3 file not having much luck there. I'm old school.

Bill

[ December 10, 2014, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: Bill Phelps ]

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted December 10, 2014 01:52 PM

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Thanks everyone for your input. I'm not even going to attempt dubbing the sound on these reels. Even if I could get a good master track it would take way to much trial and error to get it in sync and I'm sure I wouldn't be excited with the results.

It's such a shame that the audio has been lost on these reels. I got them in a grab bag of films awhile ago. They are not rare and can be replaced.

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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