8mm Forum


  
my profile | my password | search | faq | register | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» 8mm Forum   » 8mm Forum   » "Pulsing" high contrast area on digicam recording of Super 8 projection

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!    
Author Topic: "Pulsing" high contrast area on digicam recording of Super 8 projection
Greg Matthews
Junior
Posts: 11
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Registered: Jan 2015


 - posted February 08, 2015 01:27 AM      Profile for Greg Matthews     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi, I ordered the "Film Transfer System" that's for sale on eBay to help me record my 8mm film onto computer and tonight I started trying to record a movie or two on a Sony DCR-SR42 camcorder. This is a decently new model; I bought it about 7 or 8 years ago I think. The colors look REALLY washed out in the camcorder recording no matter what I do. I also get an area of high contrast that "pulses" in roughly the center of the video. I adjusted the speed on my Bell & Howell 10MS so that flicker is virtually eliminated (can't quite seem to hit the sweet that perfectly eliminates it, but I can still play around with that), but that area of high contrast is still there pulsing no matter what I do with the speed of the film. It's so bad that it pulses to pure white now and then. Watching the film on the Film Transfer System screen there is no change in contrast at all: it's only on the recording.

So, I switched over to my iPhone 6 and while the color problem pretty much went away the contrast pulse is still there.

Any idea how to get rid of that? I tried filming with the lights turned off using the camcorder and that didn't change anything. Sometimes the outside edges of the recorded video pulse dark as well, but the dark pulsing is no where near as bad as the high contrast.

Tomorrow I'm going to try recording video with my Nikon D7100 with a 20mm macro lense attached.

Thanks
Greg Matthews

 |  IP: Logged

Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011


 - posted February 08, 2015 09:49 AM      Profile for Janice Glesser     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Greg this is the kind of problem you need to actually see happening. Is it possible to take a video with another camera so we can see what you mean by the pulsing.

--------------------
Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

 |  IP: Logged

Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted February 08, 2015 10:51 AM      Profile for Tom Photiou     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I could be wrong here but I believe you need 25 fps as opposed to 24 to covert to digital. We wanted some of our home movies converted to a dvd so we took them to Phil Lily in Plymouth who does this for a living.
The result (in our opinion) wasn't too good because he uses the Eumig projectors. When we approached him and asked if he could do it again using our Elmo to give the better light output and sharper image he did say he would have a go but warned that due to the fixed 24fps running speed of the Elmo it may produce a pulsing of the image. Sure enough it pulsed. Almost as if the image you are watching has a heartbeat if this makes sense.
You do need to be using 25fps. Please someone correct me as I know I am on the right path here. [Wink]

 |  IP: Logged

Greg Matthews
Junior
Posts: 11
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Registered: Jan 2015


 - posted February 08, 2015 11:45 AM      Profile for Greg Matthews     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Here's a link to a recording I just made. This setup is obviously not for recording. I'm trying to get everything set correctly (camera position, lighting, zoom, focus, etc) before I lock it all down so excuse the fact that the Film Transfer System has the top cut off in this video! I had my iPhone propped up between two D cell batteries lol.

I just recorded it so it's obviously still light outside. You can see the reflection of window blinds on the right, but the room is actually low light.

In the recording here the pulsing is pretty much gone (don't know what changed), but the contrast is still extreme. When viewing the film images coming out of the projector with my eyes there are no contrast changes, but in the recording you see extreme contrast in colors with any whites in the center of the film completely whiting out the recording in that spot. Why are whites on the outside edges not in high contrast?

The very slight flicker in the video is me adjusting the projector speed as it plays. One of the comments said to set the speed to 25fps, but my projector only has +/- adjustments, nothing exact.

My rough video with high contrast

 |  IP: Logged

John Yapp
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 148
From: Telford England.
Registered: Dec 2011


 - posted February 08, 2015 12:13 PM      Profile for John Yapp   Email John Yapp   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
does your camera record at 25 or 30 frames per second? If 25, then it needs to be set at 1/50th sec to avoid pulsing. If 30, then 1/60th sec would be required, but most cameras won't have this setting. In my experience, it is an incorrect shutter speed on the camera, (or using auto exposure)that is the major cause of "Pulsing".

 |  IP: Logged

Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011


 - posted February 08, 2015 12:16 PM      Profile for Janice Glesser     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Greg...this is very helpful. In the US to reduce flicker and banding the projector needs to run around 20fps. However with your projector you just need to adjust the speed until it looks good. From what I can see from your video is the exposure is just too wide open. This creates blown out whites and reduces the contrast. Try moving the projector further back and stopping down the exposure on your camcorder. I've also used ND filters on my camera (Canon HV40) that helps with "hotspots."

At the end of this video you can see my quick telecine setup to demo a projector similar to yours. Remember contrast can always be enhanced using your video editing software after capture.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjSo892DKms

--------------------
Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

 |  IP: Logged

Greg Matthews
Junior
Posts: 11
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Registered: Jan 2015


 - posted February 08, 2015 12:49 PM      Profile for Greg Matthews     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think I'll have better success with my Nikon as it's a good mid-level SLR and I can set exposure and fps directly/manually. I'll try again tonight to see how it goes. I might have a neutral filter somewhere, but I pretty much stopped using filters a few years ago.

I'll watch your video. I had considered editing the video for the contrast, but it looked like so much color was being lost that I didn't think it was going to be possible!

 |  IP: Logged

Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 525
From: Dallas, TX, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted February 08, 2015 06:01 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Once you have clipped the highlights, the data is gone. It's always best to slightly underexpose in any form of digital photography (which is precisely what this is). You can always brighten it up a bit in post, but you cannot put back the data that was captured as pure white pixels.

On the flicker, if you are using a 3 bladed shutter and have film shot at 18FPS (typical for silent and some sound), then you actually have to project at 20FPS if you are using a conventional 60i video camera. If you have 24FPS footage, you either have to convert the projector to a 5 bladed shutter, or you can use either a 2 or 3 bladed shutter with a 24P video camera.

I can't find any useful specs on that model camcorder, so I must assume it is a 60i model. The resolution definitely hints at that. Since most Super 8 projectors are going to be 3 bladed shutters, this means your only choice IS to run the projector at 20FPS.

What you need to do is crank up the shutter speed on your camera as high as it will go. Then with film running (because the load is different on the projector), carefully adjust the speed until the strobing is minimized in the camera. Then lower your shutter speed on the camera back to a normal setting. That will eliminate any flicker.

Then you need to also remember to do the same thing with your focus. Zoom in as far as the camera will permit, then carefully focus manually, then zoom back out so the image fits your viewfinder.

On the hot spot, you really need a diopter of some sort. I've seen some people take a coffee straw and mount it vertically in front of the lens of the projector and then dead center of the beam of light put something round and "fatter" on the straw to block more of the light. If you put it very close to the lens, it won't affect the image, but the idea here is to DARKEN the middle of the projected image so the video camera can cope with it. Right now the center of your image is brighter than the corners. You don't really notice it with your eyes, but your video camera absolutely does.

 |  IP: Logged

Greg Matthews
Junior
Posts: 11
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Registered: Jan 2015


 - posted February 09, 2015 08:54 PM      Profile for Greg Matthews     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks to everyone who replied to my questions. I think each of you contributed a little something different to me getting everything straightened out. Tonight I used my Nikon D7100 and after about an hour of tweaking this or that I finally got everything working properly. The Nikon does a fantastic job of automatically adjusting for exposure so my white-outs are completely gone. I'm pretty sure it's stepped down a little because some of the colors are coming out dark, but it's easier to color a dark than a white! At first I was having trouble with flickering, but when I looked at the frame rate setting the camera was default set to 30p. I went to 24p then 25p before remembering someone mentioned 60 so when I switched to 60p I got the best results yet with absolutely zero flickering or strobing.

One final question....what is the best way to clean the lens or aperture or what ever to get the lint/dirt out of the corners of the projector frame? I tried squeezing my camera pen brush in between the bracket and that got some out, but I'd still like to get the rest.

I also wanted to add something in case you guys weren't aware of it. This Christmas, unrelated to this project, I bought myself a device called the CamRanger. I like macro-photography (or micro- as some call it) so I had bought myself this device so I can do hands-free extreme closeups with my camera. Since I wasn't planning on using it until Spring when the flowers are blooming and the bees are buzzing I hadn't even taken mine out of the box yet. Last night I thought the CamRanger might help with my conversion project and it works fantastic! I can set my camera at the optimal position for recording and then control it from my iPad (or a laptop or even my phone). The CamRanger allows control of practically everything you'd need to control including focusing. So, in case you guys didn't know about the CamRanger I wanted to mention it.

 |  IP: Logged

Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011


 - posted February 10, 2015 01:01 AM      Profile for Janice Glesser     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The best way to get to the gate in that projector is to remove the lens. I then use a wooden skewer with a piece of cloth dipped in alcohol taped on the end to reach in and clean all sides of gate opening. Long Q-tips might work too...but be careful that bits of the cotton doesn't get caught and make it worse. After cleaning just replace the lens and you are set to go.

[ February 10, 2015, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: Janice Glesser ]

--------------------
Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

 |  IP: Logged

Greg Matthews
Junior
Posts: 11
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Registered: Jan 2015


 - posted February 11, 2015 11:42 AM      Profile for Greg Matthews     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks Janice. I tried with a thin alcohol medical wipe wrapped around a chop stick, but I couldn't quite get in there. I used a can of air held far away and that got the gunk out of there.

 |  IP: Logged

Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011


 - posted February 11, 2015 01:32 PM      Profile for Janice Glesser     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Air will work sometimes but not all the time.I recommend you work on getting something long enough to be able to reach to the gate. Fuzz can get caught in the opening and the air is not enough to dislodge it.

--------------------
Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

 |  IP: Logged



All times are Central  
   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic    next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:

Visit www.film-tech.com for free equipment manual downloads. Copyright 2003-2019 Film-Tech Cinema Systems LLC

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.3.1.2