8mm Forum: Can the glue used on soundstripe, cause Vinegar S?

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Topic: Can the glue used on soundstripe, cause Vinegar S?

Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005

posted April 10, 2015 01:24 PM

Well the topic heading says it all, but I will elaborate.

I have a standard 8mm print of "The Birth of the Nation", and it is an amazing print in every way. Incredibly pin sharp, (much better than almost any super 8 print I have of any film) and I'm pretty darned sure it isn't a Blackhawk print ...

... but it also has a soundstripe on it. Now, I have heard either rumor (or fact?) that the glue used at one time, on soundstripe, can cause that vinegar syndrome type smell, or the actual condition itself.

I think that it's the actual condition, as the film does have the slightest warp to it, (but it does run well through a projector.

Therefore, to those who know far more concerning this subject ...

Is it the glue used to fix the sound-stripe to the film that has caused this, or is this just an unfortunate case of whatever the stock is on this print (I'll check on that), is causing the vinegar syndrome?

I should note that when I originally bought this print, it was rather tightly sealed in a fairly large metal canister.

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Maurizio Di Cintio
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 977
From: Ortona, Italy
Registered: Jan 2004

posted April 10, 2015 03:45 PM

I once read oxide can lead to VS (I think it acts as a catalyzer therefor), not just the 'glue' (which is indeed an acetone-based solvent). Actually the solvent may cause some warping of the striped film if the glue used to stripe the film was not too fresh. The same applies to cement splices: every time I use old cement, I find the splices curved after 6-12 months.

So to reply to your question, the oxide contained in the stripe, thight sealing/boxing (lack of ventilation) and high values in both temperature and humidity can certainly lead/help to cause VS.

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Maurizio

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005

posted April 11, 2015 01:57 PM

Thank you very much! I have recently been given by a fellow member some great charts and such, to see if the I.B. Tech print I am getting is an early generation print of this cartoon or a reprint. The earlier the generation, the more necessary to attempt some kind of restoration. [Smile]

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Mark Todd
Film God

Posts: 3846
From: UK
Registered: Aug 2003

posted April 14, 2015 09:42 AM

Hi Osi I would of thought as it can still gas off each side of the stripe it should be OK.

Its more about the print breathing than anything, hence the problems with 3m coatings etc causing nasty VS issues.

I was offered a Blackhawk print of the Goldrush with vinegar for £50, but obviously wouldn`t have had it just for just the post even.

Any VS prints I`ve had 1 x std 8, 1 x super 8 and a fair few 16mm went straight in the bin.

Des it actually smell of vinegar as much acetate stock can warp for many other reasons, like heat, getting dry, just doing it beacuse it wants too, etc.

Best Mark.

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Bill Brandenstein
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1632
From: California
Registered: Aug 2007

posted April 14, 2015 05:33 PM

Osi, the glue shouldn't be much different than the stuff you use to splice acetate film. In other words, once the solvent is gone, it's just plastic left behind. Now, we all know that varying manufacturing batches and glue batches may have different pH levels at the source, plus the additional variables of processing and handling issues that can permanently affect the pH. So it's anyone's guess.

The only mag film VS I've personally handled was theatrical film stored poorly; all the rest of the considerable amount of VS passed through my doors is non-mag.

That's not to say that the pH of the magnetic material can't affect the situation, and perhaps it does. But stored carefully it shouldn't be an issue any more than with a non-mag print.

If this one smells now, sealing it with molecular sieves and keeping it in cold storage may prolong its life, but you knew that.

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Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted April 14, 2015 07:33 PM

About 18 months ago I had the opportunity of going through a large collection of 8mm and super 8mm films. In a nutshell, a lot of them had VS, including unstriped reg 8mm film. But it seemed to me that VS was confined mainly to the films stored in tightly sealed circular metal cans. Those in rectangular cardboard boxes and loose fitting rectangular plastic cases seemed to fare much better. Based on this experience I am gradually converting all my collection to good quality rectangular cardboard or plastic book type boxes.

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John Hermes
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 139
From: La Mesa, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 2008

posted April 14, 2015 07:43 PM

"I once read oxide can lead to VS (I think it acts as a catalyzer therefor), not just the 'glue' (which is indeed an acetone-based solvent). Actually the solvent may cause some warping of the striped film if the glue used to stripe the film was not too fresh. The same applies to cement splices: every time I use old cement, I find the splices curved after 6-12 months.
So to reply to your question, the oxide contained in the stripe, thight sealing/boxing (lack of ventilation) and high values in both temperature and humidity can certainly lead/help to cause VS."

I think the oxide does have to do with VS. I've dealt with a fair amount of fullcoat magnetic film from the 1970s and it usually has at least some vinegar smell, with much of it starting to warp.

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John Hermes

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005

posted April 15, 2015 12:25 PM

This has been very informative thus far. Thank you very much folks! [Smile]

I should be getting a vinegary 35MM print of a classic cartoon soon, and, depending on the generation of the print, I may do, or attempt to do, a restoration if possible.

I have heard that packing a print in camphor and sealing the print with the camphor inside with it, can at least lesson the impact of vinegar syndrome.

... but what I've read elsewhere, (and heard from helpful collectors friends through private e-mails), you can never truly get rid of vinegar syndrome entire.

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Bill Brandenstein
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1632
From: California
Registered: Aug 2007

posted April 15, 2015 06:50 PM

[QUOTE=John Hermes]I think the oxide does have to do with VS. I've dealt with a fair amount of fullcoat magnetic film from the 1970s and it usually has at least some vinegar smell, with much of it starting to warp. [/QUOTE]

At least with 8mm there's the advantage that the stripes are very small! But good to know.

Osi, I heard an archivist say that over-doing camphor is very easy. It does contain one component of acetate that helps a little in re-plasiticising the film, but apparently triacetate film can "over absorb" and cause warpage. I've never worked with camphor but it sounds like you need to watch this carefully. On the other hand, the really really old films made of diacetate are best with camphor and can't over-absorb.

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