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Topic: Wobbly Music Track
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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1633
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003
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posted March 14, 2016 03:02 PM
Daniel, this is either referred to as "wow" (when the soundtrack, or most noticeably music, changes pitch, ie. is slowing down and speeding up gently) or "flutter", (where there is a chatter within the soundtrack, again, often most noticeably with music.
This isn't refined to film, but a common issue with any analogue system such as tape recorders, etc.
Super 8 is prone to such issues, most commonly "wow".
Even the very best super 8 projectors can be at fault.
There are numerous causes.
Even though the soundtrack is provided on a single magnetic or optical track, "wow" is more often only apparent with music reproduction, the ear somehow more forgiving with speech or sound effects.
However, this still remains a mechanical fault and let me tell you there are a multitude of reasons when considering super 8 (and larger formats for that matter), even down to the print itself.
"Flutter" is often due to a fairy obvious mechanical issue with the projector, sometimes even just down to bad design.
Maybe you could give us a few more details, such as the projector you are using, the print, etc.
Maybe even a recording or video?
Best,
Rob.
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Andrew Woodcock
Film God
Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012
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posted March 14, 2016 03:11 PM
I can honestly say Rob, aside from duff recordings on some soundtracks to begin with, there are one or two models I've used that never ever pose a problem with wow or flutter to my ears, at least.
Perhaps not the most sensitive in the world, but not without an acute awareness for such matters either.
I think it's certainly true some projectors are more susceptible to these issues than others anyhow.
I have even got away with excessive amounts of filmguard coating the places it ought not to on two of the projectors I have used without ever causing an issue apart from a glistening capstan roller.
There is a section or two on The Secret Of N.I.M.H. and Lethal Weapon that is like fingers down a chalk board in the heavily Laden string section of the orchestral backing track, but no matter what machine I've ever played these two films on, it still always sounds identical.
One I can and will be doing something about, the other sadly, I cannot.
I am surprised to hear Rob, that you find all machines can give issues regarding these matters.
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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"
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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1633
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003
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posted March 14, 2016 03:26 PM
Andrew, I moved to a Beaulieu 708el because my beautiful Elmo ST1200HD, even with it's floor shaking stereo sound was prone to random "wow" even with new Derann, poly, stereo prints, despite every adjustment or print treatment under the sun.
Some reels, even from the same feature would be fine, others not.
It drove me crazy, and with lots of money spent an various mods and tweeks.
Even gentle "wow" makes me cringe.
I've had in my possession 3 or 4 Elmo GS1200's over the years and all provided random "wow".
I've witnessed Xenon GS1200's at film conventions over the years give the most ear aching "wow". I'm not criticising anyone, just pointing out that nothing is perfect.
Except, maybe the 708el.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Paul Adsett
Film God
Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted March 14, 2016 08:25 PM
Daniel, IMO Elmo projectors are susceptible to WOW by nature of the design of the capstan and roller. The brass capstan is too small in diameter, as is the rubber pressure roller. The WOW is the result of slippage of the film at the capstain and sound head, as a result of the varying tension on the take up reel. You can prove this by relieving the tension of the take up (by holding the take up reel from turning), and then all WOW will disappear. Not all films have WOW on Elmo projectors, in fact most do not, but the projector design results in WOW if the film is a)too slippery or b) the film take up torque is not absolutely smooth, or c) the clamping force on the sound capstan roller is slightly weak.
Eumig projectors do not have any of these problems, no matter the condition of the film. This is because all Eumig's have large diameter stainless steel capstan rollers and large diameter rubber pressure rollers, and large clamping roller force. I have never heard any WOW on any Eumig projectors with any film.
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The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj
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Andrew Woodcock
Film God
Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012
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posted March 14, 2016 08:27 PM
Mr pro engineer, once again here. I doff my cap!
Paul outlines and details here, what I was speaking of earlier to Rob.
I too, include the Eumig models I've used in this excellent appraisal/ assessment here by Paul, especially the "High Quality Sound" models, of any variant.
Eumig placed great emphasis on sound in particular with regard to their later Super 8mm models. All feature a very large stabilizing Capstan Roller.
A lot of good Super 8mm projectors fare very well in this department, just not some of the most obvious choices you may select, as it transpires.
[ March 15, 2016, 05:42 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]
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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"
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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1633
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003
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posted March 15, 2016 08:12 AM
Paul's analysis of the ST1200 design is spot on of course.
That said, it's still a beautifully made, rock solid machine which can sound superb when behaving itself.
Elmo did introduce a mod for later machines, which was a rubber coating on the brass capstan. It didn't really help!
Andrew is right to try them on another machine of course.
One thing to look for during a "wowy" section, is (with the front cover open) watch the two small, sprung jockey rollers near the bottom of the film path, below the sound capstan and pressure roller.
If these are "dancing" or moving up and down, it is a mechanical cause, with the film tension not being steady.
As Tom has pointed out, this can actually be due to the film not being sufficiently lubricated, but can also ironically be due to over lubrication!
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Andrew Woodcock
Film God
Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012
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posted March 08, 2017 03:38 PM
An S938 makes the perfect "viewing" projector Brad.
If it can mix, record well, play in Stereo etc etc etc,
Chances are, it can project films better than most!
That's the difference!
Don't believe for one minute, that if you want to watch a film without Wow, flutter, scratches and unsteady image, without noise and duress, you don't need one that will record on films in a similar manner.
The two run hand in hand.
They are designed with all these factors in mind and the less you actually needed, the less you actually got, in every aspect!!
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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"
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