8mm Forum: 16mm projectors.. do they scratch like some Super 8 machines?

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Topic: 16mm projectors.. do they scratch like some Super 8 machines?

Alan Rik
Film God

Posts: 2211
From: New York City, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted January 05, 2016 10:10 PM

Hello all! I was wondering. Do 16mm projectors scratch films the same way some Super 8 projectors do?

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted January 05, 2016 10:33 PM

Alan...Although I haven't experienced any scratching with my Elmo 16CL model...I would have to say that from the scratches on some of the films I've purchased ... certain 16mm projectors do scratch films.

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Alan Rik
Film God

Posts: 2211
From: New York City, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted January 06, 2016 12:15 AM

That is good to know. I guess I can't purchase a 16mm projector blindly!

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Terry Sills
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1423
From: Weymouth,Dorset,England
Registered: Oct 2012

posted January 06, 2016 01:50 AM

From my experience there is only one 16mm projector guaranteed not to scratch film and that is the Debrie D16 with 'V' gate. The gate is where scratching and general wear will occur but the V gate on the Debrie guides the film through the gate by only touching the extreme outer edges of the film so the emulsion is untouched. This projector also benefits from a 3 toothed claw which helps when projecting damaged film. I don't know the availability of Debries in the US though.

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5895
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007

posted January 06, 2016 03:13 AM

Alan
If the gate is cleaned after each reel is projected there should be no problems with scratched films. A projector with a swing open gate is the ideal. A quick pass with a gate brush will suffice.
A modern (not wooden blimp model) Bell & Howell or an Eiki are two which I can recommend with such gates.
Terry made a good point about the later model Debries with their vee-gate, but perhaps they were only for the British market, a large amount of their production was for use by the British armed forces.

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Maurice

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David Guest
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1704
From: Lancashire, UK
Registered: Oct 2011

posted January 06, 2016 05:22 AM

true words spoken by terry does anyone know anyone who will service 2 debries for me

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted January 06, 2016 06:12 AM

This guy is good with 16mm projectors I believe David.
http://www.cine-repairs.co.uk/

I always fancied the look of a P8 T400 if I ever contemplated including 16mm films to my existing Super 8mm collection.

Are these renowned for scratching films Terry?

I have to say having spent many many years finding some of the few Super 8mm models that remain totally and thoroughly kind to Super 8mm film at all times, I sure would never want to go through that process of elimination again!

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Terry Sills
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1423
From: Weymouth,Dorset,England
Registered: Oct 2012

posted January 06, 2016 07:18 AM

I have no experience of the Bauer Andrew, but any projector with a standard gate wich employs a presser plate, is capable of scratching the emulsion unless the gate is regularly cleaned. Maurice has the advantage of much experience as a professional cinema projectionist so any advice he gives should be taken as gospel.
David - Maurice uses a very reputable engineer in Nottingham for his servicing requirements.

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5895
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007

posted January 06, 2016 10:21 AM

I have a Bauer P8 Universal Professional, and two P6 clones which are badged as Rank Aldis. They feature swing-open gates.
Working as I have all my life in professional cinemas using 35mm and 16mm (for Tatler) the film gates were cleaned after every reel.
That was fine in the days of 2000ft changeovers, but when towers and cake-stands appeared, that was trouble. It was over two hours before gates could be cleaned. Often new releases, which came green straight from the labs, would build up soft emulsion which caught in the gate. Some times enough of the build up would accumulate towards the end to cause scratching.
The platters could cause static which itself attracted dust. This also eventually got trapped in the gate.
With digital "prints" dust, dirt and scratching are a thing of the past.

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Maurice

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted January 06, 2016 11:04 AM

Thank you Terry and Maurice.

It sounds as though so long as reel sizes are kept to around an hours worth of film, then these should be ok then.

Back to Terry and David. The person you were speaking of Terry is the same as the one in the link I posted earlier for David, and of course the person who Maurice uses.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Terry Sills
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1423
From: Weymouth,Dorset,England
Registered: Oct 2012

posted January 06, 2016 04:15 PM

Andrew
You're absolutely correct and Maurice swears by him - though not in the profanity sense [Wink]

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted January 06, 2016 04:49 PM

Thank you Terry. That information may well prove extremely useful to me one day in the future!

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Brian Fretwell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1785
From: London, UK
Registered: Jun 2014

posted January 07, 2016 05:40 AM

Educational 16mm prints at my school that wee from a central library were often a bit scratched and sometimes had on the label "claw marks". I guess teachers were not the best to trust with the care of film and projectors.
This was in the days when a B&H 642 was considered "new".

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Dave Groves
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 508
From: Southend on Sea, Essex, UK
Registered: Feb 2015

posted January 07, 2016 09:57 AM

I had a Rank Aldis from new but the sound went wrong so many times that I eventually sent it back to Rank themselves for repair. It was returned in one piece of corrugated cardboard secured by a metal band. The handle had been wrenched from the machine. Rank gave me a new one but it too had problems and when the drive belt broke I delivered it to an advertiser in the old ACE magazine who disabled the silent running speed and used a rubber band as a drive belt. It ran for about 30 minutes then broke. The so called repairer repeated the work and it was useless. I couldn't find the correct drive belt so let it go. Nice machine when it worked!! I can heartilly recommend Kevin Brown. He repaired one of my Bell/Howell machines and brought all the replaced parts in a jam jar. Great fellow.

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Dave

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Gary Crawford
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 979
From: Manassas, VA. USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted January 20, 2016 08:40 AM

for what it's worth, I've run Kodak Pageants (250's) for years and have not had any kind of scratching problem. This machine's steel sprocket wheels, still film path and aperture is easy to clean and the entire film path is in view. Not too many opportunities for scratching, if it's kept reasonably clean. At least, that's been my experience over the last 40 or so years of using the Pageants. No automatic threading mechanism to foul up so no obtrusive film guides and such to come into contact with the film. That helps, too.

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5895
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007

posted January 20, 2016 03:04 PM

I have a Pageant but understand that as they live in a wooden case they are not easy to disassemble for internal servicing.

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Maurice

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Mark Todd
Film God

Posts: 3846
From: UK
Registered: Aug 2003

posted January 20, 2016 05:23 PM

I always had a feeling that Bell+Howells with all of the daft threading metalwork that can get bent all over are the main scratching culprits,especially for emulsion sratches, but any machine misthreaded can do it.

Generally with Eiki`s as long as you make sure the sound pressure roller does not stick and keeps free running, very very rarely scratch a film.

Bauers the many rollers in the film path can gum up causing issues. Also they can misthread easily.

I stick to Eiki`s now though after a nice Elmo CL sometime to use with my son. But even a CL can put the odd mark on the edges of the film.

Best Mark.

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Pasquale DAlessio
Film God

Posts: 3523
From: Bristol,RI, USA
Registered: May 2010

posted January 21, 2016 01:19 AM

It all depends if the films had an itch! [Eek!]

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted January 21, 2016 02:13 AM

Ah, the old ones are the best eh Pat. [Big Grin]

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Pasquale DAlessio
Film God

Posts: 3523
From: Bristol,RI, USA
Registered: May 2010

posted January 21, 2016 02:35 AM

Absolutely Andrew

Cheers!

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted January 21, 2016 03:34 AM

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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David Michael Leugers
Master Film Handler

Posts: 264
From: Fairfield, OH, USA
Registered: Feb 2004

posted February 05, 2016 12:28 AM

Most film scratches, and most all types of film damage, is mostly due to operator error or negligence. Most good 16mm film projectors are perfectly capable of not scratching any film if kept cleaned and it good working order. Cleanliness is the key.
Clean and lube the gate after every showing at least. I own several different makes and love them all and have no fear of scratching any film when I use them. The B+H JAN is of special note. The overhaul testing requirements calls for running the same piece of film through the projector 2,000 times without any sign of wear...

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Live Free or Die

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David Hardy
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 955
From: Johnshaven Village , Montrose, Scotland
Registered: Jan 2015

posted February 05, 2016 02:27 PM

Maurice I can relate to what you say regarding those bloody long play platter systems and towers. I too am a former Cinema Projectionist I always hated the things. At least with the change-overs you could always keep the gate and film path clean after every reel.

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" My equipment's more important than your rats. "

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Adrian Winchester
Film God

Posts: 2941
From: Croydon, London, UK
Registered: Aug 2004

posted February 06, 2016 03:33 PM

Having owned several Eikis over the years, I can also endorse that they are pretty good at NOT scratching films. I don't think the Eiki autothreads I've owned have ever scratched a film - the only problems I've sometimes had have been the result of a slot load which has gone wrong in relation to forming the upper loop. That certainly can cause marks or a scratch, but at least you can see it and stop the projector. I can add that I don't usually clean the gate during a show, so it seems you to don't have to be quite as thorough in this respect as with some other projectors. My recommendation for almost-guaranteed scratch-free viewing would be an Eiki SNT or (if you can find one) a ENT. These don't have swing open gates, but you can quite easily pull out the pressure plates and use a brush where needed.

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Adrian Winchester

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Elyas Tesfaye
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 520
From: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Registered: Nov 2012

posted February 23, 2016 04:56 PM

Hi all,

I actually found my EIKI SSL-Os to be my quietest and smoothest machines by far... I heard someone complain of the EIKIs being noisy. Anyone agree or disagree [Smile]

?

Best,
Elyas

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