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Topic: Novice collector - purchased films have slight odor

Patrick Flynn
Junior
Posts: 20
From: Denville, NJ, USA
Registered: Oct 2016

posted December 13, 2016 12:32 PM

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Hey all,

Recently purchased an episode of "Johnny Staccato" and the feature length Cagney film "Run For Cover". Both play fine in the projector but both have a slight vinegar odor. I messaged the original owner and this is what they said:

"The smell of vinegar is ok for some collectors and some want nothing to do with it. In my opinion as long as the film plays correctly with good quality, i don't see an issue. "

Question I have for you all is this going to be an issue going forward? I have them stored properly when not in use. Should I purchase Vitafilm, or something of the like? Is what I'm experiencing actually Vinegar Syndrome, or is it simply age? How to proceed?

Thanks.

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Clinton Hunt
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 845
From: Waharoa,North Island,New Zealand
Registered: May 2010

posted December 13, 2016 09:53 PM

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Personally I have so far been lucky with VS , I had a Abbott and Costello cartoon that was warped and had a strong odour,so I decided to get rid of it because of info on here.
The other was a Chimps film that when I initially got it it was warped and with a very slight odour so I kept it.About a year later I went to play it again and it was in a bad condition and it now had a strong odour,so I got rid of that and got another copy.
From what I understand some people hold onto them as long as they are screenable but seperate them from other films.
I will read with interest what other members think or do [Smile]

[Smile]

--------------------
Cheers from me in New Zealand :-)

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Mark Mander
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1236
From: Dunstable ,Bedfordshire.
Registered: Jan 2005

posted December 14, 2016 04:25 AM

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Personally I wouldn't have a VS print at all, I've been lucky as never had one but have seen many about in collections and for sale, if one in my collection ever turned it would go straight in the bin no matter what the title was, As mentioned some do keep them and try to resurrect them but not for me, I think once it's turned then it will be a constant worry, only my opinion and maybe not the correct one, Mark

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted December 14, 2016 04:28 AM

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I completely agree Mark.

Stick with Myler prints now for "new buys", you will never see this problem then.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5895
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007

posted December 14, 2016 06:09 AM

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Patrick

If you do decide to keep the two VS films make sure you keep them in metal containers, in a cool place, and well away from your usual film storage area. Certainly, not in the same room.

Inspect them regularly, if they become sticky, bin them immediately.

--------------------
Maurice

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted December 14, 2016 06:22 AM

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Which they will at one point or another, become sticky by degrading further through the "autocatalytic" process without the completely impractical method of deep freezing the product to suspend time in this natural cycle of chemistry.

So you may simply just decide to cut out the "middle man" and move on straight to step two!

Personally, I wouldn't want to risk any other film product in the vicinity nor would I want to put up with the incredible stench.

Just not worth the effort in my book.

Stick with buying Polyester prints from hereinafter.
No risk then, whatsoever.

[ December 14, 2016, 09:30 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Michael O'Regan
Film God

Posts: 3085
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Oct 2007

posted December 14, 2016 12:21 PM

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Personally speaking, if it was a film I loved and didn't want to destroy, I'd keep it for as long as it was projectable.
By the way, VS is not transmissible to other prints.

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Mark Todd
Film God

Posts: 3846
From: UK
Registered: Aug 2003

posted December 14, 2016 03:16 PM

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You tend to find with B+W acetate prints are richer and sharper generally, but I`m with Mark, M on this.

I had a nice std 8 Keaton title went and it made a direct journey straight in to the bin.

Luckily for some odd reason it had ended up in another cupboard in another room to my other films thank fully.

I personally would never run a VS film in a projector I intended to run other acetate films through ever. If I ever felt the need to keep one at all.

Best Mark.

PS Patrick get a refund on these 100%. The seller by the sound of it knew. It should always be fully mentioned up front.

It would really of been better, " apologies, my mistake " and offering a full refund.No one wants to buy a VS print.

If you paid paypal you have a good while, Personally last thing you need to start yourself in the hobby.

Get them back or just refunded and give the projector a very very good clean. Good luck.

Drop the gentleman a polite message asking for a refund.

Has anyone that side got any nice film they could send to patrick cheap etc.

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David Hardy
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 955
From: Johnshaven Village , Montrose, Scotland
Registered: Jan 2015

posted December 14, 2016 04:56 PM

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If it has VS ... BIN IT !!! [Wink]

[Wink]

[Wink]

[Wink]

--------------------
" My equipment's more important than your rats. "

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Evan Samaras
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 513
From: Queens, NY, USA
Registered: Oct 2015

posted December 14, 2016 05:00 PM

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I agree, get rid of the VS prints! If anything near that comes in, I send it right back!

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...When there's no more room in hell, the dead will walk the Earth...

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David Guest
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1704
From: Lancashire, UK
Registered: Oct 2011

posted December 14, 2016 05:29 PM

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bin vs prints

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Mitchell Dvoskin
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 128
From: West Milford, NJ
Registered: Jun 2008

posted December 15, 2016 10:06 AM

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> If you do decide to keep the two VS films make sure you keep them in metal containers,

NO, unless you also put molecular sieves in the can. If not, the films will last longer if you leave them out of a can altogether, but away form other prints.

The vinegar smell is caused by the acetate based film stock breaking down and creating acetic acid fumes. This is a natural byproduct of acetate and oxygen. Properly processed and stored acetate based films can last for hundreds of years, others may start decomposing in under ten. Once it starts, it can not be stopped. The reason to keep it in a can or away from other prints, is that many feel that the acetic fumes can hasten vinegar syndrome in surrounding reels of film.

Sealing films in a can (without molecular sieves) just traps the acetic fumes in the can, hastening the destruction of the film.

If your films are not warped, and run ok now, you have a decision to make. They may last for decades before they become unrunable, or they may start warping in a year or so. Personally, I stay away from vinegar'd films, knowing that they will eventually warp, but you need to make your own decision. The seller should have informed you before the sale about any vinegar smells.

There are paper test strips that you can buy and seal into the can which will tell you after a few days how far along the reel is towards it eventual demise.

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Colin Fish
Film Handler

Posts: 68
From: Eastbourne, UK
Registered: Nov 2016

posted December 15, 2016 12:31 PM

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What are the test strips called and where can you get them?

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Michael Lattavo
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 160
From: Canton, OH, USA
Registered: May 2014

posted December 15, 2016 12:46 PM

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A-D strips:

https://www.imagepermanenceinstitute.org/imaging/ad-strips

I agree with Mitchell, only store in a can if using sieves - otherwise, best stored out of can so it can breathe - and definitely away from other films! I generally toss them, myself - have held onto a few, though - in a completely different room.

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Ronald Green
Film Handler

Posts: 53
From: Delray Beach, FL, USA
Registered: Nov 2016

posted December 17, 2016 03:01 PM

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Why expose a film that has vinegar issue to other good films?
Had a film with vinegar issues-- got rid of it. Don't want anything in my film collection with vinegar issues.

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Mark Todd
Film God

Posts: 3846
From: UK
Registered: Aug 2003

posted December 17, 2016 05:04 PM

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Hi Patrick, get a refund or get them back in the post.

The seller should cover both posts if he wants them back as well.

I would go for a signed service as well.

Best Mark.

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Michael De Angelis
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1261
From: USA
Registered: Jul 2003

posted December 27, 2016 05:08 PM

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Let's be honest and consider this comparison:
If I purchased fruit online and it arrived rotten, I would call the
vendor and ask for a refund and they would refund the money.

Would you buy rotten fruit from a grocer and expect the grocer
to tell you to add sugar to make it taste better?

There are a wealth of available film titles to enjoy without the worry of VS.

The seller should eat it, and not you. You worked hard for your money.

Ask for a full refund and do not be persuaded for less and you should not
feel guilty.

--------------------
Isn't it great that we can all communicate about this great
hobby that we love!

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Mark Todd
Film God

Posts: 3846
From: UK
Registered: Aug 2003

posted December 28, 2016 05:15 AM

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Absolutely, and Patrick, don`t let it put you off, there are lots of great films and great people in the hobby.

Best Mark.

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Dave Groves
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 508
From: Southend on Sea, Essex, UK
Registered: Feb 2015

posted December 28, 2016 09:04 AM

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Patrick, ask a few questions before purchase. 'Has it got V.S.? What's the colour like? What condition is it in...(splices, scratches, pulled perfs etc.) Is it complete? These come immediately to mind. And if the vendor says 'I don't have a projector to test this' or 'no returns' I'd be inclined to avoid. These are the years you learn by experience. And, if you're served well by individuals or dealers, stick with them. Sadly V.S. and faded prints are surfacing more often but there are plenty of decent prints about. Get your money back on this occasion. The seller should detail a films faults.

--------------------
Dave

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Patrick Flynn
Junior
Posts: 20
From: Denville, NJ, USA
Registered: Oct 2016

posted January 08, 2017 02:26 PM

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Hi all,

I was able to get a refund on the "Run for Cover" (which was very expensive) but not the Cassavetes print. I think that one will keep, as it doesn't have the odor any longer (strange, no?) Anyways, thanks all for your feedback!

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