8mm Forum: Hello! Film bunching problem

This is topic Hello! Film bunching problem in forum 16mm Forum at 8mm Forum.

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Posted by Matt Darr (Member # 6270) on January 17, 2018, 10:47 AM:

Hello all. I have just started to collect 8mm and 16mm ptojectors, and have a problem with my Bell and Howell 2580

It actually plays and sounds fine, but after a few seconds, the film starts bunching up usually from just below the gate.

Both the top feed wheel and the bottom one (the ones with the teeth one) are connected to the same gear inside so I dont see how one could possibly move faster than the other.
Yet for some reason it bunches up between the gate and the wheels where it passes the sound head.

It Usually bunches up in the section ive marked in RED, if not the section in GREEN. (yes I have the covers closed when trying)

Thanks for any advice.

Posted by Matt Darr (Member # 6270) on January 17, 2018, 01:05 PM:

well I just found this

http://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=001662# 000000

and then I saw this in mine.....

So any advice, help with getting to that thing to replace it?

Posted by Richard C Patchett (Member # 974) on January 17, 2018, 02:07 PM:

Greetings Matt
Sent you a E mail
RC

Posted by Matt Darr (Member # 6270) on January 17, 2018, 04:03 PM:

Yes thanks Richard! Very helpful.

So heres where I am now....transformer out, motor out, fan out
How do I get to the sprocket behind that lower wheel?

Posted by Barry Fritz (Member # 1865) on January 17, 2018, 09:55 PM:

Is it the worm gear you will be replacing?

Posted by Matt Darr (Member # 6270) on January 17, 2018, 10:26 PM:

no its the sprocket gear behind that big silver gear that the worm gear turns.
You can maybe see it just sticking out at the bottom

Posted by Terry Sills (Member # 3309) on January 18, 2018, 02:01 AM:

The problem is that you need special tools to do this job. Richard does sell them I believe, but they are not cheap and the sprocket wheel is not cheap either. Probably best to have someone like Richard, who knows what they are doing, to do the repair for you.

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on January 18, 2018, 03:03 AM:

The Bell & Howell slot loaders are useful projectors, but the sprockets are not in line, hence the small extra sprocket which after all these years does give trouble by cracking.

Posted by Matt Darr (Member # 6270) on January 18, 2018, 09:24 AM:

yeah mines badly cracked as you can see.

Thanks, I guess i'll have to decide whether I want to spend more than the $35 for the sprocket. Not sure I do honestly.
[Frown]

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on January 18, 2018, 10:15 AM:

Matt
Before you make any decision I suggest you give a thorough check of the main worm gear.
If the little gear is cracked it is quite possible that the worm is also about to give trouble.
Changing a worm is not as easy as it may look. Be warned.

Posted by Matt Darr (Member # 6270) on January 18, 2018, 02:47 PM:

Richard has helped me alot and im almost there. Just need to pull off the sprocket and put the new one on.
The worm gear looks to be a good shape so I might be able to get this working fully for just the price of a sprocket which would be wonderful!

It would have been a shame to fail on this project as it works great in all other respects.

The dried oil/grease on all the gears bothers me though. I'll try to clean all that up as much as possible before reassembly.

I appreciate all the input, hopefully it'll back in action soon!

Posted by Barry Fritz (Member # 1865) on January 18, 2018, 03:59 PM:

What Maurice said. It is just a matter of time before the worm gear goes.

Posted by Matt Darr (Member # 6270) on January 18, 2018, 06:16 PM:

well I'm an expert now I can handle it when it does [Smile]

heres the culprit, finally....

Thanks for the help Richard

Posted by Terry Sills (Member # 3309) on January 19, 2018, 02:22 AM:

Well done Matt
Did you manage it without special tools or are they more readily available in the USA?. Let us know the outcome when you've re assembled it and got it up and running.

Posted by Matt Darr (Member # 6270) on January 19, 2018, 01:47 PM:

It was actually quite easy with just screwdrivers and allen wrenches.
The two sides come off this model making the bolts for the transformer and motor easy to access.
The worm gear looks a nastier job, I'll deal with that if/when

I have ordered a new one from Richard, hoping it works out then I'll have a very nice projector which actually cost me $4 from Goodwill [Smile]

Posted by Richard C Patchett (Member # 974) on January 19, 2018, 03:10 PM:

Greetings
Part was shipped out this Morning
Thank you Matt
RC

Posted by Matt Darr (Member # 6270) on January 22, 2018, 05:25 PM:

Got the part, thanks Richard that was fast.

I'm guessing I need to take off that silver piece to allow the new sprocket to fit. Its got allen screws but I have nothing that small.
I just went out and bought a whole set and none of them are the right size
Any clue as the exact size ?

Seems to be between 1.5 and 2.0 or 5/64 and 1/16th

[ January 22, 2018, 06:39 PM: Message edited by: Matt Darr ]

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on January 23, 2018, 06:11 AM:

Matt
Could it be a Torx screw?
I see that T6 is 1.70mm, and T7 is 1.99mm.
Some projectors did use Torx screws, and I think that included Bell & Howell.

Posted by Richard C Patchett (Member # 974) on January 23, 2018, 08:57 AM:

Greetings Matt
You should have a tool supply company near you
Take the new gear to them and get the right size of Allen wrench
( not any large stores like Home depot)
I don't recall the size
But i do have them in stock for $15.00 includes shipping
Much cheaper if you can get one yourself Under $2.00
RC

Posted by Matt Darr (Member # 6270) on January 23, 2018, 09:56 AM:

I dont think its Torx but Ill find a magnifier and check.

The screw with the gear you provided Richard, is sightly different, I have a wrench for that, seems to be 1.5
I'll try the 1.7 torx though, a 1.75 Allen doesnt seem to exist so you might be right.
Thanks

Posted by Barry Fritz (Member # 1865) on January 23, 2018, 12:52 PM:

Could it be a Bristol socket?

Posted by Matt Darr (Member # 6270) on January 23, 2018, 03:15 PM:

cant really tell, i'll try the torx and if that doesnt work I'll attempt to get a drill bit on it or Dremmel.
Failing that ill cut the middle out of this $35 new sprocket [Frown]

<gulp>

Posted by Barry Fritz (Member # 1865) on January 23, 2018, 04:08 PM:

Bell & Howell used Bristol screws on some of their projectors. I think one of my JANs had them. Larry sells them and I think Amazon has them also.

Posted by Terry Sills (Member # 3309) on January 23, 2018, 04:25 PM:

Barry as I remember you are correct. That is what I was referring to when I mentioned 'special tools'. Better to use the correct tools, I would suggest, rather than drilling it out and maybe causing further problems.

Posted by Matt Darr (Member # 6270) on January 23, 2018, 08:02 PM:

tough to get a good picture of it
Might just be a stripped hex
I think im gonna Dremel slots in them then use a flat head screwdriver

[ January 23, 2018, 11:44 PM: Message edited by: Matt Darr ]

Posted by Matt Darr (Member # 6270) on January 24, 2018, 06:04 PM:

I dont do subtle and delicate lol
Anyway, its off now. Go ahead, flame away

Posted by Bill Phelps (Member # 1431) on January 24, 2018, 06:26 PM:

It looks like it might have been torx/star bit from the picture.

Posted by Matt Darr (Member # 6270) on January 24, 2018, 08:45 PM:

I think whatever it was it was just really stripped out.
I know its pretty horrible what I did but it worked.

Just put everything back together and it definitely fixed it!
Its working great other than having to hit the loop reset a few times a minute, not sure what thats about, but im happy.

Posted by Matt Darr (Member # 6270) on January 25, 2018, 01:35 PM:

I've been reading from other people that have to hit the 'loop reset' lever alot and they mostly all blame the film?
Is that right? Problems with the film rather than the projector? I currently only have one 16mm film so cant do alot of testing

EDIT - well i got another film and it plays perfectly so yes, it was just the film

[ January 30, 2018, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: Matt Darr ]

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 6244) on February 12, 2018, 05:25 PM:

I'm having a similar problem with a 1575A. Much of the mechanism including the problem area seems to be attached to a sort of sub plate which is towards the operator from the main plate. I don't know if that is the same arrangement on the machine shown in this thread. If so, how does one get to it?

Posted by Barry Fritz (Member # 1865) on February 12, 2018, 05:44 PM:

How are you coming on the removal of those screws?

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on February 16, 2018, 10:30 AM:

I was talking to my engineer today about this Bell & Howell and its problem, and he confirms that it is a Bristol socket as suggested by Barry.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 6244) on February 18, 2018, 08:41 PM:

I'd love to know how one gets to that area of the projector. I think I'm going to junk mine but I'd like to see what's actually happening there but I don't know how to get that that front mechanism plate apart from the main one.

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on February 19, 2018, 05:09 AM:

Steve
Have a look at the Service Manual which may help you.
http://www.film-tech.com/warehouse/index.php?category=2#16mm Projectors
Click on 16mm projectors, and then scroll down and click on "B & H model 1580, 1680 service manual."

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 6244) on February 19, 2018, 03:26 PM:

Thank you. It became more apparent when I started taking things out. I thought I had a good worm but with more light on the subject I see it's starting to crack. As expected the lower sprocket gear was indeed cracked so this projector is being discarded with as much going into recycling as possible. I did salvage the amp so maybe I can use that for one of my old turquoise-colored B&H projectors with noisy tube amps.

Posted by Matt Darr (Member # 6270) on February 22, 2018, 10:40 AM:

yeah move everything out of the way, the transformer, motor etc and you get to that gear. I think someone tried to remove it before and stripped it which is why I had to use a Dremmel to cut it out.
My projector is happy now, playing films just fine I love it!

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