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Author
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Topic: The 100 Year Disc
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James E. Stubbs
Expert Film Handler
Posts: 104
From: Portland, OR
Registered: Apr 2007
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posted September 02, 2008 11:52 PM
They said CD's would last forever.... To quote and English swear... BOLLOCKS!!!! Find me a 10 year old CD that plays for crap.... You can't... But I have 100 year old acoustically recorded gramaphone records that still play just fine. Just like my grandfather's 60-70 year old home movies are still wonderfully watchable.... But my 15-20 year old video tapes are totally unwatchable. As are many of my oldest DVD's are not in that great of shape either.
Graham, may I suggest a dual/multi archive solution? In addition to the gold discs, which are good, it's the plastic that surrounds them that is crap, store all your vital memories and data on 3 different formats: Gold CD ROM, GOLD DVD ROM, and a portable hard drive. I've found 20 year old hard drives in junk piles that oddly still work. This way no matter what, somwhere in the future one format or the other, beside the actual film, will stil be usable.
Cheers,
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James E. Stubbs
Consultant, Vagabond, Traveler.
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Osi Osgood
Film God
Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted September 03, 2008 11:42 AM
You know, I find myself being on the rare side of supporting the other side, but, if done properly, storage on disc can last a good long time.
I made a feature film on mini VHS tape called, "Pink BIson 3: Love Connections" starring Myself and about six other people. We shot it literally in between college classes. I directed as well, and despite a few "costume problems" (A character having a different shirt on in the very next shot? Bloody hell! Learned a lot there) it did quite well.
I edited it all on a computer program. We first digitized onto archival CD's in a "wide format" (using as much room on the discs as possible, not scrunching it up any), and then loading it into the program to edit it, (which I did, along with adding the soundtrack, ect.) I was amazed that I was able to edit it in little over a week, (I almost went insane!), but then, I did a time and frustration saver by shooting almost the whole film in sequence, shot by shot, from the beginning to end, so trimming and editing it was fairly simple.
It ran 80 minutes (including funnier than hell end credit sequences as well as a surprise ending!), with animated titles as well. From everybody who have seen it, they tell me it's a lot funnier than most of the comedies that are put out these days, and a lot cleaner!
In the future, I'm thinking about doing a "directors cut", as well as a very extensive "digital clean-up" of the original VHS tape masters to make the film look and sound better than ever!
I just state all of this to say that Computers and CD's and such are a life saver! I would have NEVER had the budget to make this film otherwise.
And I still have all of my original CD's from the late 1980's ("Bread's Greatest Hits" and the soundtrack to "Chariots of Fire") and they still play brilliantly.
Now I would argue, alongside of you, about how much more fragile the digital format is, but proper storage will make them last a lot longer!
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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "
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Osi Osgood
Film God
Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted September 04, 2008 09:55 AM
I agree with Jim ...
I'm appalled when I see people transfer they're old Super 8 films to VHS or CD/DVD and then toss the films! I have rarely, (if ever) seen a transfer of a Super 8 film look great on VHS, perhaps on DVD, but they have to be damned good with the quality.
and then, to prove there neanderthal like tendencies, they don't bother to even clean they're film! I can't count how many films transfered to video look like they have been dragged through the streets first.
I was doing restoration for a friend of they're trip to Rome Super 8's, (with stops all over Europe), when I was done, they were really surprised at what they saw. They had an old GAF projector, (I was quite surprised that the films looked as good as they did after that GAF!) and the films would either shutter wrong or any number of other problems. These films were actually shot quite well. Well, what do you know, grandpa knew what He was doing with that camera!
I personally think transferring to DVD, IF the person doing the transfers has a good head on his shoulders, is the best way, as, while VHS has a lot of surface "noise" to the image, DVD , from what I have seen, doesn't carry over that noise problem to the image, giving a more accurate transfer.
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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "
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Paul Adsett
Film God
Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted September 04, 2008 10:10 AM
Hi Graham,
My 5 year old Criterion DVD of 'A Night To Remember' is also now unplayable. Just like you, the disc looks fine - no scratches, but it does look dull, not shiny, and nothing boots up at all - the player does'nt even recognize it. Considering Criterion is a premium company, and the disc cost $40.00, you would expect it to last for decades. Very scary - and another reason to hang onto your old Kodachrome films and a great 8mm projector.
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The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj
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Brad Miller
Administrator
Posts: 525
From: Dallas, TX, USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted September 04, 2008 12:36 PM
The problem is that nobody understands.
That 8mm film will outlast any known digital format...if not duplicated. What I mean by this is that if someone transfers the film (regardless of the quality of the transfer) to a video format and then sticks that tape/DVD/hard drive on a shelf in the closet alongside the film original, years later that video transfer will be unplayable while the film will probably still be ok (provided it didn't dry out and become brittle or suffer heat damage, etc).
What has to happen is that the video transfer must be re-duplicated every 5 years. With analog video like VHS, that resulted in a quality loss every time. With digital video, there is no quality loss provided you re-duplicate it BEFORE the disc or hard drive becomes unreadable.
The ideal situation is to transfer the films in as high of definition as possible, with the least amount of compression possible. THEN it can be re-compressed to fit onto a DVD or Blu-Ray for regular playing BUT the original master should be kept in two different mediums (one disc and one hard drive) in two different locations (in case your house burns down) and re-duplicated every 5 years. Transferring the films is actually a very good idea, provided you have the ability to do it in a high definition format (ideally uncompressed too), because it is far easier to "preserve" a digital transfer than to preserve the film. At some point in time the film WILL become unrunnable. The fact that the film will outlast a video many times over isn't the issue.
And it goes without saying the film should be thoroughly and properly cleaned and lubricated before transfer.
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Osi Osgood
Film God
Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted September 05, 2008 09:21 PM
You really do learn something new almost everyday! I never knew dyes were even used in the production of Laserdiscs or DVD's!
I can say that some of my Laserdiscs have begun to have problems, though I haven't checked for spots. I haven't even noticed any defects period, and I have one of the top of the line Pioneer players, but I suspect that it might need re-aligning or something, as it seems that I can hear some kind of "wobble" inside the player.
What I really like to have is one of those Pioneer combo DVD/Laserdisc players. I don't know it for a fact, but I'm assuming that since it has to have a laser sensitive enough for DVD, it must paly Laserdiscs to thier best potential.
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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "
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Paul Adsett
Film God
Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted September 06, 2008 01:36 PM
Hi Eric,
I do not share your pessimism about the longevity of movie projectors. Bear in mind that projectors (particularly silent ones) are basically very simple mechanical devices and are usually easy to repair. I know if you say that to a GS1200 owner, he will probably choke, but I am talking about the Bell and Howell 606 Regents, the Bolex 18-5's, Eumig P8'S etc. These are all extremely well designed and rugged machines. I look at my little 18-5 and it runs as good as it did when it was made over 40 years ago, and except for the belts I can't see anything that will ever go wrong on it. You can always find appropriately sized rubber O-rings, which substitute perfectly for the original belts belts. Same thing with my 9.5mm Pathe Baby - made in 1922, and still running perfectly. No doubt there are a bunch of cheaply made projectors out there that are going to fall apart, but if you stay with the quality brands like Bolex, Eumig, Elmo, and you maintain your machine, I think there is no question at all that they will way outlast any electronic video equipment that you can buy.
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The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj
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Osi Osgood
Film God
Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted September 06, 2008 07:34 PM
Kevin, I ask you ...
I asked a question earlier on, stating :
If a combo DVD/Laserdisc player has a laser that is sensitive enough for DVD's, would it not play a laserdisc to it's best potential?
By the way, Kevin, I have a whole mess of Laserdiscs that I have upgraded to DVD copies and would be happy to part with. Would you like a list of them? They would go fairly dirt cheap.
Also, concerning Laserdisc, when I have watched my Laserdiscs on my older model, (made during the laserdisc era)
"Sharpvision" LCD projection TV, they seem to actually look better on this TV than my DVD's. Why would this be?
I can only guess that a laserdisc has all the information for each frame of film, on the each frame of the "laserdisc", while the DVD, to save room on the disc, will have less information displayed, therefore sometimes in still scenes with little movement, a dvd will almost look like it is freeze framed, where the laserdisc has all the grain, happily giving away that it is still a moving film image!
Am I right ... or completely off?
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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "
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not for the 100 years but for a while at least until they come up with something else. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
however hopefully soon we will be heading to a National Park "up the mountains" and the camera we will be taking along will be our old Canon 512XLE Super8 ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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I thought I was on my own in this area of collecting!
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