8mm Forum: 35mm to 4K Digital Projection-Conversion

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Topic: 35mm to 4K Digital Projection-Conversion

Barry Johnson
Master Film Handler

Posts: 358
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jul 2003

posted February 14, 2010 11:00 AM

All I will say is thank heavens for all those of 70mm film preservation groups and exhibitors.Lets keep what we have for as long as we can.

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Standard8 rules!!

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Michael O'Regan
Film God

Posts: 3085
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Oct 2007

posted February 14, 2010 12:38 PM

Christian,

That's partly the point. If the movie itself is made with actual film, then that's what we should see - not a digital representation of what's on that film.
[Smile]

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Mark Williams
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 846
From: West Sussex
Registered: Mar 2007

posted February 14, 2010 12:47 PM

And if a film is entirely shot on digital then surely the best way to see it is in a digital presentation and not transfered to film such as the recent PUBLIC ENEMIES which apparently lacked something when shown in 35mm.

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Michael O'Regan
Film God

Posts: 3085
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Oct 2007

posted February 14, 2010 12:58 PM

.....which leads onto another discussion....
Are movies eventually going be shot digitally? Will film disappear forever?

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Gian Luca Mario Loncrini
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1948
From: Verona (Italy)
Registered: Jan 2009

posted February 14, 2010 02:03 PM

Not in my house [Wink]

!

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I remember when I was (super) 8 years old...

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Mikael Barnard
Film Handler

Posts: 85
From: Leighton Buzzard, Bedfordshire, UK
Registered: Jun 2009

posted February 14, 2010 03:12 PM

About 3 or 4 years ago I was lucky enough to attend one of the special cinema screenings of the restored version of the Star Trek pilot 'The Cage'. Being the mad film, Star Trek and Susan Oliver fan that I am I couldn't pass up the opportunity and went along knowing full well it would be from one of those evil digital projectors. The image itself was fine, very nice in fact. Digital does have its advantages, no print damage courtesy of poor equipment or crap projectionists for one, I'm just an old stick in the mud in a 25 year old's body who prefers messing about with proper film.

It wasn't the image quality. What would have made me walk out had it been practically any other film (particularly a modern one) was right at the start. The curtains drew back and in the top left corner of the screen was a SODDING PLAY TRIANGLE! (you know, the '>' symbol) Er, no! If I want to see that sort of thing I have my DVD player. Maybe it's just me but that made me so angry. Bye bye showmanship.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 525
From: Dallas, TX, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted February 14, 2010 07:23 PM

For starters, that theater had crap 35mm equipment. Odds are too that they let things go over time, but some things like the screens being old (they lose their reflectivity with age) and are not comparing apples to apples (the digital stuff had brand new xenon bulbs...and most certainly larger ones too). Well duh, its no surprise that the digital looked better.

Also note there is no 4K content available. At least not yet, so everything is still 2K.

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Adrian Winchester
Film God

Posts: 2941
From: Croydon, London, UK
Registered: Aug 2004

posted February 14, 2010 08:18 PM

What's striking about this is that money must be no object at the cinema in question - some can't afford to change one screen to digital, let alone 9 at the same time! It also seems crazy to clear out 35mm from every screen, considering that most cinemas will sometimes want to show films not available in digital form.

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Adrian Winchester

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Graham Ritchie
Film God

Posts: 4001
From: New Zealand
Registered: Feb 2006

posted February 14, 2010 10:22 PM

Interesting, I wonder how much an instalation like that costs? the "life" and price of the Xenon lamp compared with say a 35mm projector? "running cost hour wise" Unlike 35mm which has a proven track record of around 100 years will that VP be as reliable say in 10 years time? I guess you would have to have a good service contract as I can imagine parts and labour if needed being very expensive, its not exactly like the projectionist changing the oil and belts in a 35mm. [Wink]

Graham.

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Stuart Fyvie
Film Handler

Posts: 90
From: Amersham
Registered: Jun 2003

posted February 15, 2010 02:06 AM

The sales of brand new 35mm projectors still outperform Digital Barco's and the like by a considerable margin......

Stuart

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Martin Jones
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1269
From: Thetford , Norfolk,England
Registered: May 2008

posted February 15, 2010 04:54 AM

My own personal feeling is that out of respect for the completely different technology we need a completely new name for this form of presentation.
The words "Cinema" or "Movie Theater" have a specific definition resulting both from their origins and from the continued use of a specific technology, that of the exhibition of moving images based on the "persistence of vision" recorded as sequential images on photographic film and presented therefrom, which has been substantially remained unchanged (except for improvements in its implementation) for over 100 years.
"Presentation" is completely separate from "Filming", so while "Digital Presentation" can present material CONVERTED from photographic film to Video, "Cinema" cannot present material originating from Video Recording.
In that respect the two forms of presentation are completely different, and deserve their individual identities.
Perhaps "Videodrome" or "Video Theater"?
Martin

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Retired TV Service Engineer
Ongoing interest in Telecine....

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Martin Jones
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1269
From: Thetford , Norfolk,England
Registered: May 2008

posted February 15, 2010 07:52 AM

Sorry posted twice
Martin

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Retired TV Service Engineer
Ongoing interest in Telecine....

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Larry Arpin
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 953
From: Sunland, CA, USA
Registered: Dec 2006

posted February 15, 2010 09:15 AM

PUBLIC ENEMIES would have looked just as bad digitally presented as it did on 35mm as it was shot with a crappy digital camera.

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Mark Williams
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 846
From: West Sussex
Registered: Mar 2007

posted February 15, 2010 11:32 AM

Hi-Larry,PUBLIC ENEMIES looked outstanding on its native digital format DVD!!

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5468
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003

posted February 16, 2010 09:08 AM

SONY is just everywhere.

I have a 1980s "My First SONY" that is a simple drawing computer to be hooked up to a TV (This is a toy for first learner kids).

And the picutre above is a huge 4K projector, ...still with the same symbol "SONY"....!!!

Inbelievable, the same logo applied in a very different function.

Nowadays, whereeer we go, in the home cinema to broadcast standard, the majority gears are SONY.

Man....!

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Winbert

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Christian Bjorgen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 996
From: Kvinnherad, Norway
Registered: Oct 2009

posted February 16, 2010 10:41 AM

For me, the poor film quality, reels snapping, going backwards and haywire, that's part of the fun!

At my local theatre, we had so much problems with reels and stuff when showing Ice Age 2 that it took us 3 hours to watch it, when it lasted 1,5 hours. And then we even had to skip half-a-reel!

Still, it was the most fun screenings I've ever attended.

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Well who’s on first? Yeah. Go ahead and tell me. Who. The guy on first. Who. The guy playin’ first base. Who. The guy on first. Who is on first! What are you askin’ me for? I’m askin’ you!

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Barry Johnson
Master Film Handler

Posts: 358
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jul 2003

posted February 16, 2010 12:34 PM

There is one other fly in the ointment,film renters give precedence to digitally equipped cinemas,thus they get the product.Independants unable to raise the capital for digital are being overlooked,so now its not just the seating capacity of cinemas but wether or not you have digital.
Digital aint going away so we must partway accept the new kid on the block,or fade away quietly and seek out "film" venues. [Frown]

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Standard8 rules!!

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Michael O'Regan
Film God

Posts: 3085
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Oct 2007

posted February 16, 2010 01:00 PM

The thing is that we don't have to accept it, not at all. If there's a new movie we want to see we can wait the 12 weeks or so til DVD release and watch it in the comfort of our own home, on a TV or with VP if you have it.
For me the only reason to go to a cinema is the knowledge that I will be watching film, ie. the medium in which the movie was made.

Sorry, but it's just art being tramped all over by commerce, yet again.

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Stewart John Boyle
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 170
From: Glasgow,Scotland
Registered: Oct 2009

posted February 16, 2010 01:26 PM

I personally get the feeling that Moore`s Law may well apply for Digital Projectors.
Re-fit after Re-fit..,
Yours
Stewart

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I`ve, seen things you people wouldn`t believe,

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Graham Ritchie
Film God

Posts: 4001
From: New Zealand
Registered: Feb 2006

posted February 16, 2010 02:04 PM

I would just like to add that in the last 10 years of projecting 35mm for a living that its...very...very reliable. The three projectors we use Bauer U4 which is now 30-40 years old [Eek!]

the Simplex and a Kinoton. The three screens that those projectors run in start about 10am in the morning through to 11pm at night with a 10-15 minute gap between sessions for downstairs staff to clean and allowing about 5 minutes or so for the projectionist to clean the projector down and re-thread. "I also do the weekly schedule" we can screen up to ten different features here in one day. The projectors can be running 12-14 hours a day every day every week every year [Smile]

with only Christmas day is the cinema closed. I do the Xenon lamp changes [Eek!]

early in the morning and projector maintenance is done outside the school holidays with the occasional nil session. I am still amazed in particular with the Bauer U4 and I cant even imagine the hours that projector has done since this cinema opened in 1991 good German engineering once again. The owners of this cinema and the shopping mall that its part of have certainly had there money worth out of film projecting thats for sure. In those 10 years I can only recall [Roll Eyes]

about six times that a projector has broken down and I cant even remember the last time we recieved a complaint from the public regarding picture and sound its been years. I put all this down to not just the film equipment which by now does need an upgrade, but to the other two projectionist I work with, one other like me is full time the other which is part time and still at school, both do a really good job. One day and I dont think its to far into the future that with this cinema the film projectors etc like its projectionist will be history but its certainly been an experience that none of us working with film shall forget [Smile]

.

Graham.

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Darren Payne
Film Handler

Posts: 46
From: Bournemouth
Registered: Mar 2009

posted February 16, 2010 04:02 PM

Mmm. Heard today that a well maintained 7 year old Victoria 5 including console and CNR platter was dumped into a skip in 'a cinemas' car park yesterday to make way for a digital replacement. Looks like this story won't be uncommon too.. How sad.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 525
From: Dallas, TX, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted February 17, 2010 02:13 AM

quote:
The sales of brand new 35mm projectors still outperform Digital Barco's and the like by a considerable margin......

That is simply not true. Christie and Strong are the two biggest manufacturers of 35mm equipment. Christie has already stopped manufacturing 35mm projectors entirely and Strong is very close to the end.

However everyone is correct here, the usable lifespan of these digital projectors will never come close to the usable lifespan of film projectors. That statement is in reference to technology only, regardless if the projector would physically run for 100 years or not.

quote:
If there's a new movie we want to see we can wait the 12 weeks or so til DVD release and watch it in the comfort of our own home, on a TV or with VP if you have it.

The studios are now trying to reduce that even more.

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Jean-Marc Toussaint
Film God

Posts: 2392
From: France
Registered: Oct 2004

posted February 17, 2010 03:12 AM

Cinemeccanica, although still having their hands in 35 (but not for long), are currently pushing their sales of rebadged Barco projectors.
I have a feeling that films will soon be sold like sport events via pay per view. On the day of their release, you'll be abe to go watch a film in a digital theatre or pay a hefty sum and download it to watch it at home. The longer you wait, the cheaper the price.

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The Grindcave Cinema Website

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Damien Taylor
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 111
From: Perth, Western Australia
Registered: Oct 2008

posted February 17, 2010 10:58 AM

We are having digital installed in coming weeks, hopefully leaving 3 homeless 35/70 Vic 8s [Cool]

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Michael O'Regan
Film God

Posts: 3085
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Oct 2007

posted February 17, 2010 01:21 PM

Brad Miller said:"The studios are now trying to reduce that even more"

I thought they were trying to reduce the cinema exclusivity from 17 weeks to 12 weeks as in this article:
http://www.inentertainment.co.uk/20100216/disneys-alice-in-wonderland-could-face-cinema-boycott/

You mean they are looking for even less time???

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