8mm Forum: 9.5mm Restoration

This is topic 9.5mm Restoration in forum 9.5mm Forum at 8mm Forum.

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Posted by John Tanner (Member # 5406) on May 23, 2016, 08:00 PM:

I acquired a Pathe Baby projector (Pats No. 175.968/195.915/196.896 - British Pats/Made in France) and films (mainly French - one example is 'J'Accuse' 10.070G 1-6) in the 1980s.

The films need attention (some snapped when I showed them in the 1980s so now with age they are probably in worse condition). The projector also needs attention although it was working last summer but with all the dust in this part of the world the handle for driving mechanism has become very stiff. It was last serviced in the 1980s.

Where do I go from here? I now live in Cairo and am very far from people who could help me with this i.e. in Europe or the US. I would have to be lucky to stumble upon someone really good here.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Posted by Terry Sills (Member # 3309) on May 24, 2016, 01:50 AM:

John
It sounds like the films have become brittle which results in perforation cracking. That is to say that the film cracks across the weakest point, which is where the centre perforation is. Nothing you can do about it I'm afraid.
As for the stiff operation of the projector, it sounds like the shutter (which is made of a very unstable material called Mazak) is deteriorating. It becomes irregular in shape and so catches on the outer casing or other internal parts. The climatic conditions of your location is the probably the cause, or has accelerated the deterioration. The only solution is to replace the shutter with a substitute made of brass or aluminium. There are people who manufacture them and hopefully a forum member will come up with a name/contact for you.

Posted by Chris Bird (Member # 3839) on May 24, 2016, 02:22 AM:

As Terry says, very likely to be a distorted shutter. To check, open the gate, unscrew the thumbscrew on the top of the projector, then the top just lifts off. You'll then be able to see if the shutter flywheel is jammed against the housing. Replacements are available, and Janice has written threads on the forum about fitting one.

This is one of several relevant threads:
http://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=000051

J'Accuse is very rare on 9.5, so it's a shame if it's now too brittle to project. I found several rare 9.5 films in the South of France, but the hotter (than England) climate had ruined many of them.

Posted by John Tanner (Member # 5406) on May 24, 2016, 03:16 AM:

Many thanks for your replies so far Chris and Terry. As you can appreciate this forum is a life saver for me as I will need to gather as much information as possible to see what the best course of action is.

To compound the problem the films originated in Egypt, went to the UK and came back to Cairo, where I am living now, which means they also spent some time in the mainly damp UK climate.

In fact my list of films is here:

REFERENCE - FILM NAME - NUMBER - CONDITION
10.070G - J'accuse - 1 - out of reel
10.070G - J'accuse - 2 - half out of reel
10.070G - J'accuse - 3 - for analysis
10.070G - J'accuse - 4 - for analysis
10.070G - J'accuse - 5 - for analysis
10.070G - J'accuse - 6 - for analysis
10.078G - Etre ou ne pas etre - 2 - for analysis
10.078G - Etre ou ne pas etre - 3 - for analysis
10.078G - Etre ou ne pas etre - 4 - for analysis
10.078G - Etre ou ne pas etre - 5 - for analysis
770 - Marin malgre lui. La vie a Bord - 1 - broken
770 - Marin malgre lui. La vie a Bord - 2 - broken
770 - Marin malgre lui. La vie a Bord - 3 - for analysis
770 - Marin malgre lui. La vie a Bord - 4 - for analysis
770 - Marin malgre lui. La vie a Bord - 5 - for analysis
770 - Marin malgre lui. La vie a Bord - 6 - MISSING
770 - Marin malgre lui. La vie a Bord - 7 - for analysis
466 - Les Fantomes, Harold Lloyd - 1 - for analysis
466 - Les Fantomes, Harold Lloyd - 2 - for analysis
466 - Les Fantomes, Harold Lloyd - 3 - for analysis
466 - Les Fantomes, Harold Lloyd - 4 - for analysis
2001 - Marin malgre lui. Dans I'ile de Khaurpura - 3 - for analysis
2001 - Marin malgre lui. Dans I'ile de Khaurpura - 4 - for analysis
2001 - Marin malgre lui. Dans I'ile de Khaurpura 2001 - 5 for analysis
2001 - Marin malgre lui. Dans I'ile de Khaurpura 2001 - 6 for analysis
750 - Marin malgre lui I'enrolement - 2 - for analysis
750 - Marin malgre lui I'enrolement - 3 - for analysis
750 - Marin malgre lui I'enrolement - 5 - for analysis
750 - Marin malgre lui I'enrolement - 6 - for analysis
607 - L'Homme au masque de fer - 1 - for analysis
607 - L'Homme au masque de fer - 4 - for analysis
407 - La culotte de Harold Lloyd - N/A - for analysis
10021 - Libre Echange - N/A - for analysis

I am guessing that it would be difficult to send the films and camera abroad for expert repairs. I probably do not need to stress that in this part of the world things work differently and I need to be careful about what I do as I would not like any of these items to be confiscated in transportation by an opportunist working for the relevant authorities. The other alternative is to find an old timer here who genuinely knows what they are doing but then this requires both knowledge and trust on my part, the latter being more difficult to achieve...

In terms of the films is restoration also possible and is this an expensive process? I imagine that the films would have to be restored as there is no point in risking projecting them in their current state.

Apparently the original owner of the films tells me that they had them in their family in Cairo and someone used to come to their house and project films to their family and friends many years ago. The original projector and some Charlie Chaplin films went 'missing' which is unfortunate but then this is Egypt...

Many thanks for the links. I will look at them and take my time to get my head around what is a new (and exciting) subject for me.

Posted by Chris Bird (Member # 3839) on May 24, 2016, 01:01 PM:

Hi John, with regards to your projector, the idea is to fit the replacement shutter yourself - there are threads in the 9.5 section regarding how to do this. It's not an expert job necessarily.

The films are harder. Damage can be repaired with the rare and expensive CIR splicers, but it sounds like the films need to be replasticised. I haven't done this myself, but it involves sealing them in a can with camphor. But in principle both these approaches could be attempted yourself if you feel up to trying. There aren't really any specialists to do this sort of work for you per se.

Out of interest, do you know who Marin is on your list? I know it's not Chaplin ('Charlot') or Keaton ('Malec').

Posted by Ken Finch (Member # 2768) on May 24, 2016, 03:09 PM:

Hi John, You can obtain new brass shutters from Ken Valentine or another alternative is Ron Ashton. Ken Valentine does not have a website but addresses can be found on Grahame Newnhams website. Regarding the films, the most common problem with those early prints is lateral curvature as they have dried out with the heat, particularly at the notches for the titles. Would it be possible that they are breaking as the notch catches in the gate or the notch pin is not clearing the channel at the end of its movement?
Sometimes it is possible to restore the film by immersing it in water for a few minutes and then hanging it up to dry before winding it back into the cassette. However, draping up 30 or 60ft of film in Cairo with so much dust in the air is going to be a bit of a problem. Unfortunately, if the film is starting to split laterally across the sprocket holes, it has gone brittle and there is little that can be done to restore it. A shame really because some of the titles you have mentioned are may be quite rare. Although some were later re issued as 300ft versions with a numbered prefix of S with notched titles or SB with running titles. It is quite rare for those early releases to go brittle. This mainly happened with films printed by Pathescope during the war years. Hope this is of help to you. I'm a mine of useless information!!! ken Finch.

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on May 24, 2016, 04:09 PM:

Chris, Marin is not a name, it means sailorman (like Popeye le marin). "Marin malgré lui" is an Harold Loyd film.

Posted by John Tanner (Member # 5406) on May 24, 2016, 09:16 PM:

Many thanks for this mine of information, Ken and Chris. This is really going to help me when I get started on the next stage of this project.

I thought it would be better to upload some photos of the projector and films here. I guess this would make any further assessment of the film condition slightly easier for you to analyse at this stage.

With regards to the projector, I had to replace the glass on the lower magazine myself but this will have to be done again as it is not quite the right size and shakes a little!

From memory the last time I did a showing to some friends which was actually in the 1980s (the one and only showing!) I remember using the splicer and cinecol you can see in the picture with the box. I think the small audience were quite amused but this isn't something I would want to do on a regular basis...

When I tried feeding some film through last summer the film didn't completely turn within this lower magazine and would sometimes bend requiring manual intervention.

I was also wondering if the projector requires some sort of oil within its component parts as part of a maintenance programme.

Posted by Chris Bird (Member # 3839) on May 25, 2016, 12:22 AM:

Dominique, thanks so much for enlightening me! Those sound like they come from Harold Lloyd's first feature, 'A Sailor-made Man'.

John, the projector will definitely need oil, not just in its restoration but also in its regular use. It's worth oiling it (with sewing machine oil) before anything else. In my earlier email I say how to remove the top to get at the mechanism.

The first problem with the films is that it is pretty much impossible to get them back into the cassettes once they have been removed. In my own case, I would spool these together onto larger spools, which makes them easier to repair as well, but your projector isn't fitted with the longer arms 'super arms' to enable you to project these.

The splicer you have, using cement, will allow you to join the films together where they have broken, but not to make repairs - only a tape splicer will do this, which is why they are worth their weight in gold.

I suppose the first question is whether you feel up to restoring the projector yourself - I only mention this as in England, it is possible to obtain a working Pathe Baby, with a modern replacement shutter, and modern lighting, for around £50 or so. Just worth bearing in mind.

The films are, as Ken says, rare ones, so it would be a pity not to save them if they can be saved.

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on May 25, 2016, 08:01 AM:

Chris, it is, indeed, "A SAilor Made Man", as a specialist of silent films, you had no difficulties to guess it :-) For the "little story", the French title refers to the title of a famous (French, of course) play : Le médecin malgré lui (The Doctor Despite Himself). The translation under brackets is probably not perfect but gives you an idea of the meaning).

Posted by John Tanner (Member # 5406) on May 25, 2016, 03:06 PM:

Hi Chris, I am definitely going to do my best to try and save these films. I am just thinking outside the box if it would be possible to find a sponsor for this project, maybe an institution in a French speaking country who is interested in what I am trying to achieve and which may also result in an eventual showing. I don't mind funding this myself either as the outcome will be worth it.

I like the idea of also buying another projector if I get stuck on a problem with this one. I may look at getting special permission to transport everything overseas to find the relevant person/institution to look at it all. I really don't want to get stuck with a problem at the border and at the moment I haven't found someone to trust on this. I am afraid things here now are not like they were here in the great past with precision workmanship i.e. building great temples, pyramids etc...

I looked through the posts and was looking at Ken's idea of:

quote:
Sometimes it is possible to restore the film by immersing it in water for a few minutes and then hanging it up to dry before winding it back into the cassette.

Is this really doable? I can always use mineral water and place the film at some distance from a fan so it does not immediately gather dust. Just an idea at this stage...

I want to also look into your suggestion of replasticising the film although this would be something new to me. I have seen some organisations offering to restore 9.5mm film but I think what they mean is transferring it to digital, unless there is of course another option to actually copy the film in 9.5mm format so it can be shown with the projector in this format.

I'll see if I can work on the shutter problem initially by investigating the problem in the projector myself.

In terms of oiling the projector with sewing machine oil is there anywhere in particular it should be oiled?

In addition looking at the projector can anyone estimate a date and also for the films? The historical significance of these projectors and films is also interesting.

Obviously there is your site but who else is good on spare parts and buying a new projector if necessary? I know of Grahame Newnham of course.

I guess a trip to the UK/Europe will be a must at some point if I can't get spare parts delivered here.

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on May 25, 2016, 04:33 PM:

John, I would personnaly not use water on film. Filmguard is much safer but, as said previousely, it is not easy to handle the film in the small cartridges. Graham sells small perfo repairs but is reluctant to mail out of the UK. Of course if you contact him and explain the situation, he could make an exception. I'm afraid, you're not in the right part of the world to have your projector fixed. I know Egypt as I've been there many times (and will be for a few days in August). I remember several years ago having been to a place in Cairo where they used to fix 35 mm projectors but I have no idea where the place was nor if they still could do anything regarding projectors. I got the address from a photo shop, but, again, as it was long time ago, I don't remember which one. If the Kodak shop in front of the synagogue(in the little perpendicular street, downtown in Cairo) still exists, they could maybe help you. Otherwise (good transition with the synagogue), you could try in the neighbooring country, Israël, but even there you may not be lucky. The best thing I would advise is buying another projector or spares and try to fix yours with step by step instructions.

Posted by Dino Everette (Member # 1378) on May 25, 2016, 05:07 PM:

quote:
The films are, as Ken says, rare ones, so it would be a pity not to save them if they can be saved.

Yes especially the Gance and ÊTRE OU NE PAS ÊTRE (1922) as that is one I have always been on the lookout for, because it is one of those French silents you may not ever have the chance to see otherwise...If you ever want to have that one scanned I would do it for free for the chance to see it, and could show you how the camphor can really revitalize these old 9.5 (and 28mm) films as I use it all the time and actually store some of my 9.5 and 28mm films with the camphor since the diacetate film stock will only absorb what it needs, whereas triacetate (later film stock) will over absorb and actually melt the film to itself.

Posted by Ken Finch (Member # 2768) on May 25, 2016, 05:32 PM:

Hi John, Having looked at your pictures , the films do not appear to be too badly buckled and cleaning them with Filmguard or Cresclean could be the answer. Unfortunately these cannot be posted but you may be lucky and find some from a photographic studio or shop in Cairo. You could also try Ironing them! to get them flat again. I have done this in the past where the titles at the start of the films seem to get buckled. I was reminded of this as someone has just posted a you tube example on the forum in another section. If the films are splitting across the perforations then this is the sign that the film has gone brittle
and cannot be restored but I would be surprised if this is the problem in your case. It is more likely that the film broke through being caught up in the gate as I mentioned previously.
Sometimes the little pin which moves sideways into the notch on the title does not spring back sufficiently and prevents the film from moving again when the claws re engage. Could be a speck of dust stopping it from sliding properly!! best of luck, ken Finch [Smile]

Posted by Chris Bird (Member # 3839) on May 26, 2016, 02:22 AM:

John, the Pathé Baby projector was on the market from 1922-35, and sold well, so there are various ones about if you do decide to acquire another machine. You can also get glass sides to the film chamber with a cutaway section - this is handy to get your fingers in if the film doesn't take up properly.

Dealers like Grahame Newnham or Tony Reypert are worth trying, as well as keeping an eye open here. I sold a working Pathé Baby on the forum last year for £45.

In terms of the films, they are rare on 9.5mm, but in most cases, like Sailor Made Man (the Marin films - thanks Dominique!) and J'Accuse, have been preserved complete on 35mm and are available on DVD. The 9.5mm versions are severely reduced copies of much longer films (J'Accuse runs about 3 hours complete). So this may discourage an institution getting involved. The fun lies in owning them yourself, on film, and being able to show them on an antique hand cranked projector!

Janice has written many posts on this forum about her restoration of a projector identical to yours.

Posted by John Tanner (Member # 5406) on May 26, 2016, 06:51 AM:

Thanks again for all of your responses. I am overwhelmed and impressed by the level of expertise on this forum.

I added a few pictures to the bottom of my web page on this. I looked through a Kodak website here on this in order to try and understand these technical terms. If my understanding is correct the worst part of the films are suffering from being brittle, having some breaks, creases and also do not all have a tight roll. There is also the term perforation damage but I don't know if this applies to these films.

I am looking at the worst case scenario so I know what I am getting into and I do not want to be in any way tricking anyone or glossing over the severity of the problem.

My original idea had been to do a free showing of some of the films with the projector at a French Cultural Centre in Cairo but I need to look at the existing problems first to see if this will happen at all. At the same time there are may so called experts who claim to know things that they do not know here in Cairo which is why I was advised to get on to your forum first.

Dominique - Many thanks for your advice. Please do not hesitate to contact me by email or pm if you have the time when you are here in Cairo in August, if I am here that is. I am struggling with many things having spent most of my life in the west! There is a place called Cimatheque (which is in the building next to the synagogue) here but I am reluctant to contact them until I get more information on the condition of these films. My preference is to get everything done outside Egypt if possible. I am afraid that a trip to a neighbouring country probably wouldn't be well viewed by the authorities here.

Dino - So tempting. I would love to fly over to the US. I was last in California in 1994 when the other Clinton was President! I added the worst part of the film condition for you to see on my web page (link above). This is not an average. Please bear in mind that I only have 2-6 of Etre ou ne pas etre. I think they are actually in better condition than J'Accuse. I'm not too sure where J'Accuse ends and if there are only six cartridges (I have 1-6). Also I don't mind if you send me an email or pm if there is something you would like to discuss outside the forum.

Ken - Please have a look at the additional pictures if this helps for a more detailed analysis. Looking back at the Kodak site this is what they say about creases:

quote:
A crease is defined as a distinct sharp fold line or crack in a piece of film. We should always splice out a sharp crease because it can lead to further film damage and screenimage deterioration. Creases and folds often occur in leaders and trailers, particularly when poor winding, untaped film ends, use of inadequate reels, or some other filmhandling deficiency spills film onto the floor.

If these creases and folds often occur in leaders and trailers then perhaps this is normal. At the same time I am guessing that this is what leads to breaks...

Chris - Many thanks once again. I was once in touch with Grahame Newnham but now will be able to contact him again with so much more information I have gained from this post.

I may myself do some hunting around the back streets of Cairo for 9.5 films and projectors. Some of the things you find here belong to another era. I think they still sell those massive old big wireless boxes in antique shops...

quote:
The fun lies in owning them yourself, on film, and being able to show them on an antique hand cranked projector!

In many ways this is what I was after but the first priority is the condition of the films followed by a look into the projector problems.

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