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Author Topic: Elmo vs Sankyo
Sam James
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 114
From: London
Registered: Oct 2005

- posted December 14, 2005 05:35 PM      Profile for Sam James   Email Sam James   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Found this forum a couple of months ago and then, as a consequence, found myself and my partner shuffling around Ealing Town Hall staring wide-eyed at all kinds of wallet-crippling stuff.
She's sold on the watching of proper features. I'm an actor and consequently ask my mates to flounce around in short films for me. Until October it was always silent and just a bit of fun. Then my tired old Eumig died and I discovered you lot.
In November I was given a projector I.O.U. and it's not been cashed in.
Failed to "win" a top notch GS 1200 that the majority of you say is the Rolls Royce of projectors and have watched the eBay monster for a good one since. But why? Perhaps I should take heed of the helpful souls that responded to my first tentative forays into S8 projection. Like Barry Atwood (from BFCC) who is not, given the further content, permitted to respond.
Barry currently has a Sankyo 800 and an Elmo 120STD for sale. The first for £325 and the second for £400. Both are in diamond nick.
Now, I've watched this forum for some time and have a headache from reading and cross-referencing every relevant item, so now I need to be more specific to me and my gal:-
1.With the Sankyo, we can buy and view both standard 8 and super 8, offering a much greater back catalogue, yes?
2.With the Elmo, we can watch Magnetic and Optical features, offering how much more exactly? And how is our very occasional £200 plus future outlay on a feature going to be affected if we don't go for an optical projector?
With both, I can dub sound (stereo is not an issue)?
With neither film speed is variable for home made telecine?
Sorry to all of those that know, but I really would like to project some films at a reasonably high quality and (for now) without having to break the bank at Monte Carlo.
Sam
p.s. Is Barry "projector man" from eBay - see Sankyo 800?

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Jan Bister
Darth 8mm

Posts: 2629
From: Ohio, USA
Registered: Jan 2005

- posted December 14, 2005 08:56 PM      Profile for Jan Bister   Email Jan Bister   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You are correct on all of your assumptions, with one exception... neither the Sankyo nor the Elmo will play regular 8mm (standard 8mm) films... both will only play super-8 and single-8 films which are dimensionally exactly the same (but single-8 film is polyester-based and slightly thinner than acetate-base super-8 film).
If that was too confusing, just remember: Super-8 = Single-8 and Regular 8 = Standard 8, but Super-8 and Regular 8 very different [Wink]

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Call me Phoenix. *dusts off the ashes*

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted December 14, 2005 09:50 PM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Wow Jan!,

You make an interesting point! If Super-8 is acetate based and Single-8 is polyester, does that mean that the films in my collection that are on polyester really aren't "Super-8 films"?

Wonderful! I've been collecting "another gauge" and my wife never found out! (neither did I!)

Let's see if I can do that with 16mm!

(Comedy hour is over! Back on topic!.... sorry!)

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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John Clancy
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted December 15, 2005 02:49 AM      Profile for John Clancy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'd go for the Elmo. Sankyo's have a very good reputation and are amongst the most robust of Super 8 manufacturers. The reason I would opt for the Elmo is because there is more expertise out there for maintenance and some of the more wearing parts are available new thanks to the efforts of Tom Photiou and Bill Parsons who bought up all the remaining Hanimex spares for Elmo's.

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British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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Sam James
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 114
From: London
Registered: Oct 2005

- posted December 15, 2005 05:07 AM      Profile for Sam James   Email Sam James   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks Jan. So trying cover all the bases and hunting for a dual format projector is not an option?
Again, at the risk of being a div, is Optical a must have and are magnetic sound projectors unable to show optical features?
And, slightly off topic, why does it appear that the Japanese were so good at it?

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James N. Savage 3
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1375
From: Washington, DC
Registered: Jul 2003

- posted December 15, 2005 06:31 AM      Profile for James N. Savage 3     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sam-
I have owned and run only SANKYO 800's since about 1980, and they are great, durable machines. But, for someone starting from scratch in 2005, I would have to recommend the ELMO, simply because, #1- they are probably a little better than the SANKYO's, and, most importantly, #2- it is much easier to find parts and repairmen for the ELMO's, plus accesories like the 1.1 or 1.0 lens.

Nick.

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Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted December 15, 2005 09:01 AM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Sam,
You do not need to have an optical sound projector. The number of titles released on super 8 optical sound was miniscule compared with those on magnetic sound( A 100 or so optical titles at best versus thousands of magnetic sound titles).
The best known optical plus magnetic sound projectors are the Elmo ST1200 HD and the Elmo GS1200. Eumig also made a combined optical/magnetic super8 sound projector the Eumig 800 HMO, but these are very rare.
As far as the Japanese being so good at super 8 projector design, they were indeed, but many would argue that the European companies, such as Eumig, Bolex, Bauer, Beaulieu, and Heurtier, were at least as good and in some cases better.

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The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Barry Attwood
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1411
From: Enfield, U.K.
Registered: Aug 2003

- posted December 15, 2005 09:14 AM      Profile for Barry Attwood   Email Barry Attwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dear Sam,

First of all, no I'm not projector man from ebay, if I sell on there I'm always listed as "independent_8". Both the Sankyo 800's I told you about are still on my list (10% OFF at the moment, as well), and I've got a nice Elmo ST 1200 HD Mag/Opt on my lists too. Why don't you have a look on the BFCC SITE and follow the link to the Independent 8 pages.

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Gary Crawford
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 979
From: Manassas, VA. USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted December 15, 2005 10:50 AM      Profile for Gary Crawford     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'd go with the Elmo ...and then also wait for a nice Eumig 810-D to show up somewhere...these are nice machines that do a good job of showing super 8 AND standard 8mm. I leave my elmo's for super 8 and have the eumigs permanently set up for standard 8.

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Sam James
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 114
From: London
Registered: Oct 2005

- posted December 15, 2005 02:52 PM      Profile for Sam James   Email Sam James   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks to all of you for your info and recommendations. As I inch closer to buying Barry's ST1200 in time for a Christmas viewing of The Railway Children (possibly the finest film in which Jenny Agutter keeps her kit on), just a couple more questions:
1. Does the ST1200 have sync-pulse capability like its bigger brother?
2. Are "scope" lenses as available for it as they are for the GS and if so, what's a reasonable price to expect to pay?
Once again ta very much!
Sam

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Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted December 15, 2005 05:17 PM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The ST1200 is not equipped for pulse -sync, the GS1200 is the only projector with that feature. Scope lenses will fit just about any projector, but you need a free stand for the lens, or a scope lens mount that can be adapted for your particular projector. Scope lenses usually run anywhere from $50.00 to $250.00 on ebay. Make sure the scope lens is a 2;1 expansion ratio for CinemaScope prints.

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Jan Bister
Darth 8mm

Posts: 2629
From: Ohio, USA
Registered: Jan 2005

- posted December 15, 2005 10:00 PM      Profile for Jan Bister   Email Jan Bister   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Magnetic-only sound projectors CAN of course show optical sound films, just without the sound. Projecting the image works all the same, though, so I suppose you could sync the sound off a DVD version of the movie or something like that... but then, the easiest way to keep a film and soundtrack in sync is by using the GS1200, and the GS1200 already plays optical sound in addition to magnetic.... back to square one... ohwell. [Big Grin]

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Call me Phoenix. *dusts off the ashes*

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Tony Milman
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1336
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted December 16, 2005 01:51 AM      Profile for Tony Milman   Author's Homepage   Email Tony Milman   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have to disagree (well of course I would) as I amlucky to have both Sankyo and Elmo and find the Sankyo to be a nice quiet machine and having excellent sound as well. It is nice to film as is the Elmo. If you wnat assurance on the projector then Barry is your man. Ebay is not for the feint hearted but I would also ask around the other dealers to compare prices and haggle like crazy!!!!!!

Then again I won an Elmo too and have to say the ST is built like a tank. It is easier to play around with alternative lenses and the gate opens fully for cleaning. The sound though mono booms out of both of mine and if anything it is a devil to control.

Either way you will have a super projector. Enjoy

--------------------
Tony

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John Clancy
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted December 16, 2005 02:35 AM      Profile for John Clancy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The Elmo on Barry's list is the HD model which means it has stereo capabilities. However, the line levels are low on the outputs as they are more intended for earphones. This can be corrected as Agnello Guarracino discovered a box designed for in-car hifi's that converts speakers output terminals into proper hifi line level outputs. Costs about a tenner so not something to have any concern about as it can be dealt with later.

There are other machines around with sync' pulse capabilities. Fuji made one for a start and there have been one or two Fumeo's that came out of the factory with sync' pulse. As a Fumeo is going to be hard to find and Fuji's aren't exactly a sought after make if you ever want to go down the multi-channel digital sound route you'll have to wait for a GS-1200.

--------------------
British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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Jean-Marc Toussaint
Film God

Posts: 2392
From: France
Registered: Oct 2004

- posted December 16, 2005 03:25 AM      Profile for Jean-Marc Toussaint   Author's Homepage   Email Jean-Marc Toussaint   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The Fujica SH30 si a cool toy and very similar to the Elmo GS1200. Cheaper (in the 200-300 GBP range) but hard to find.

If Sinister Mike was here, he would probably tell you to buy a Sankyo as he's got a soft spot for these machines [Wink]

I'll second what's been said here. Go for the Elmo. You have all the good cards in your hand:
- Top-notch machine
- Barry, your dealer, is a member of this forum
- Spare parts can be traced
- Anything goes wrong, a wild bunch of experts are available here to help you fix the problem

[Big Grin]

John? What's this little device you're talking about? I plan to run my 16CLs through my stereo amp and would need such a gizmo.

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The Grindcave Cinema Website

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Sam James
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 114
From: London
Registered: Oct 2005

- posted December 16, 2005 12:33 PM      Profile for Sam James   Email Sam James   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Right, that's it! Thanks to all of you for your comments and advice as a result of which I've only gone and shelled out for Barry Atwood's ST1200. He, too, was most helpful when I spoke to him this afternoon, so if it's a plot by the whole bunch of you to con me into purchasing a badly beaten up version of what everybody (bar me) knows to be the world's worst s8 projector, I take my hat off to you - you certainly took me in!
I suppose now I shall have to dig even deeper and buy some bloody films. Is there no end to this insanity?!!!!!

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Tony Milman
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1336
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted December 17, 2005 03:08 AM      Profile for Tony Milman   Author's Homepage   Email Tony Milman   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sam

Congrats

Now go and buy a Sankyo as well [Big Grin]

Barry, Thanks for the great free film offer on behalf of all the posters [Wink]

--------------------
Tony

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Jan Bister
Darth 8mm

Posts: 2629
From: Ohio, USA
Registered: Jan 2005

- posted December 17, 2005 02:03 PM      Profile for Jan Bister   Email Jan Bister   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sam,

you only asked for a projector - you never said anything about film, too! [Big Grin]

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Call me Phoenix. *dusts off the ashes*

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David Pannell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1072
From: Horsham, West Sussex, UK
Registered: Nov 2004

- posted December 19, 2005 07:33 AM      Profile for David Pannell   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Sam, and welcome to the Forum.

In a word - NO - there is no end to this insanity - in fact it gets worse - or better - depending on your point of view. [Big Grin] [Big Grin] [Big Grin]

Best,

Dave.

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Dave.

Valves and celluloid - a great combination!
Early technology rules OK!

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John Clancy
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted December 20, 2005 03:08 AM      Profile for John Clancy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Good luck with your new toy Sam.

Jean-Marc, if you still have shops that sell car hifi then that is the place to ask. I suppose it's some sort of pre-amp. But all it does is convert speaker terminals into full level line outs. Just what the ST-1200HD needs to become a full blown stereo machine.

--------------------
British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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Jean-Marc Toussaint
Film God

Posts: 2392
From: France
Registered: Oct 2004

- posted December 20, 2005 03:18 AM      Profile for Jean-Marc Toussaint   Author's Homepage   Email Jean-Marc Toussaint   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks, John.

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The Grindcave Cinema Website

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Tony Milman
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1336
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted December 20, 2005 01:50 PM      Profile for Tony Milman   Author's Homepage   Email Tony Milman   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
J-M

If you have any probs locating let me know, we have a local car accessory shop and I am going to ask if they have some

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Tony

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Rob Koeling
Master Film Handler

Posts: 399
From: Brighton, UK
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted December 20, 2005 02:54 PM      Profile for Rob Koeling     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Jean-Marc,

I bought one of those from an electrics store a few years ago. Might be worth a try as well.
I bought it to redirect the sound on an Eiki SL to an amplifier, but than I discovered the line-out on that machine...

I was gonna offer you mine, but I realized (just in time) that I will need it for my Elmo CL sometime too (the Eiki hardly ever gets out of the cellar anymore, since I bought the Elmo).

- Rob

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Jan Bister
Darth 8mm

Posts: 2629
From: Ohio, USA
Registered: Jan 2005

- posted December 20, 2005 10:58 PM      Profile for Jan Bister   Email Jan Bister   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think this came up before, and it was then that I asked "how can you use the ST-1200HD's speaker outputs for stereo sound when there is only one speaker output?"

I never got an answer so my question still stands. [Confused]

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Call me Phoenix. *dusts off the ashes*

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Andrew Wilson
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 784
From: dundonald,belfast,co.antrim,northern ireland.
Registered: Jan 2006

- posted February 26, 2006 09:50 AM      Profile for Andrew Wilson   Author's Homepage         Edit/Delete Post 
hope you are enjoying your elmo.now you have been bitten by the super8 bug you will or have found many sites for a format that was supposed to be dead.there is nothing that can beat super8;i know ive tired the lot and i am back to super8.anyway welcome to the forum.andy.

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