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Author
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Topic: Intercutting Star Wars to be 3 x 400?
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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God
Posts: 5468
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted January 10, 2006 11:31 PM
I have read and read again this review on Ken vs Marketing in Star Wars http://8mmforum.film-tech.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000045
Could someone help me out:
I just received this title from Germany in 3 reels, i.e 2 reels from Marketing (1 x 400 and 1 x 200) plus UFA (1 x 400). It is so pity that Marketing only released the second reel for 200". I do hope to have 3 full reel x 400 to obtain 45 minutes show.
Now, do you think I can add another 200 feet taking from the Ken Part 2?
I haven't seen Ken Part 2 so I don't now the contain and need your help.
But let me tell you that the scenes at Ken Part 1, from start to end, is equal to my Germany reels, from the first reel to the third (until one-third of the reel). So in the last two-third of the third reel, there is 10 minutes left before the medal presentation in the end of the film.
I was thinking that if the Ken Part 2 (full) is intercut into my third reel then I will have 45 minutes show, is this correct?
Your input is appreciated,
thanks
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Winbert
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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1633
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003
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posted January 11, 2006 03:07 PM
Winbert, the Ken Part 2 includes (in an abridged form);
Luke cleaning the droids and discovering Princess Leia's hidden message,
Luke heading into the desert and being attacked by the sandpeople and his rescue by Ben Kenobi,
The arrival at Mos Eisely with Ben and meeting Han Solo and Chewbacca in the cantina,
The Millenium Falcon escaping Tatooine,
The firing of the Death Star and the destruction of Alderann,
The return of the Millenium Falcon to the rebel base and the final battle and destruction of the Death Star,
The awards ceremony at the end.
Non of these scenes are in the Marketing version or the Ken Part 1, so I think you will get a lot more than 200ft from the Ken Part 2!
Haven't timed a completely edited version, but I think 45 minutes sounds about right if you put it all together.
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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God
Posts: 5468
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted January 13, 2006 05:26 PM
Ralf,
Thanks for that confirmation.
But how can UFA = Ken Part 2, since the last scenes that I see from Ken part 1 (i.e. Kenobi swithces the button, Kenobi's sword fight with Dart Vader, "Run Luke...Run Luke"'s scene, battleship space war and Luke shoots a space war) are in my UFA's reel? Those scenes are sitting in about one-third of the reel.
Now, could Ralph or Rob tell me, if your Ken Part 2 has also the same scenes like what I have mentioned above? (but I suppose it would not, because if that the case, then who ever intersplicing Ken Part 1 & 2 will get the same of last scenes)
But to be noted, all my three reels are really splicy and I think, it came from different stocks/labs, since the saturation, color temperature and sound quality are sometimes different.
cheers,
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Winbert
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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1633
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003
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posted January 14, 2006 05:10 AM
Thanks for clearing that up Eberhard and Ralf.
Winbert, the brief scenes with "run Luke run" and the Millenium Falcon escaping the death star are in BOTH the Ken Pt.1 and the Ken Pt.2 (or it would seem UFA version).
This was done to help both Pt.1 and Pt.2 make sense on their own.
This is the only footage which is duplicated in both parts and accounts only for a couple of minutes. After this, the Ken Pt.1 moves into the Tie-fighter battle (as does the Marketing Pt.2) but the Ken Pt.2 moves straight to Moff Tarkin telling Vader, "I'm taking an awful risk Vader, this had better work" and then the final scenes preparing for battle, attacking the death star, etc.
So I think this all makes sense now ![[Confused]](confused.gif) ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) ![[Smile]](smile.gif) with your version being the Marketing version with the various scenes from the UFA (which it seems are the same as the Ken Pt.2) being spliced in all the way through?
Ralf, I have the Ken scope version of Pt.2 but I believe there may also have been a cineavision version (all same content). Is the Kempski version a full frame image, or does it have the edges of the image slightly black masked off as a cineavision print would?
I wonder if anyone could confirm a cineavision version out there (or did I dream this?) as prints made by cineavsion were actually the most accurate representation (in terms of image ratio) of the theatrical releases.
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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1633
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003
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posted January 14, 2006 10:12 AM
Thanks Ralf, so it looks like all scope versions of Pt.2 originate from Ken.
No, there was never a scope Ken Pt. 1.
The 200ft Ken version is basically a shorter version of the 400ft Pt.1, but I believe it was actually produced first. It opens with the scene at Ben Kenobi's house and is a little longer than the same scene in the 400ft Pt.1. It includes Ben giving Luke the lightsabre which is not in Pt.1 and continues on a little longer too, so this scene could be used to extend all versions slightly. The 200ft then basically moves to the death star escape and the tie-fighter battle (same as Pt.1).
By the way, you are right that Ken Pt.2 was produced later than Pt.1 and both were designed to be self-contained, hence some repetition.
The Empire Strikes Back was only (officially) a 2 x 400ft version where Pt.2 carried straight on from Pt.1. There is also a rarer 200ft version which comes with the soundtrack also on a cassette tape, but this is simply a shortened version of Pt.1.
Originally, Empire was to have been 3 x 400ft, but Ken felt that the super 8 market was collapsing, so when they cut Pt.2, they wrapped the story up. This is why Pt.1 seems quite well edited and paced, but Pt.2 seems a bit too condensed. I believe Pt.2 would originally have contained Han Solo being frozen. etc. Shame.
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Jean-Marc Toussaint
Film God
Posts: 2392
From: France
Registered: Oct 2004
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posted January 23, 2006 11:09 AM
Gentlemen, let's settle scores, here.
Rob did provide us with the best editing guide to cutting the longest and best Star Wars digest ever.
I have just checked the material and what you need is:
- KEN digest part 1 (400 ft)
- KEN 200 ft
- MARKETING part 1 (400 ft)
- MARKETING part 2 (200 ft)
- Either KEN part 2 or UFA (400 ft) as they are exactly the same
You really need these five reels, in hope you can find more recent prints for colour continuity. Putting together Marketing 1+2 and the UFA reel WILL NOT create the longest digest (once again, check out Rob's original post).
Some extra scenes and missing sequences are available on the two Marketing reels BUT, there are some scenes in Ken part 1 that are missing from the German version (such as the droids boarding the escape pod or Luke and Leia crossing the Death Star pit). The scene at Ben's house is the longest if you add the Ken 200ft extract to the Ken part 1 version. The shortest version is actually the one featured on the Marketing part 1 (400 ft).
I hope it's clear. Hats off to Rob, anyways, for his original editing job. Although I have all reels, I haven't started splicing the German clips into my 850 ft US version (Ken 1 & 2 + Ken 200 ft). Will do soon, hopefully.
As far as the full length version is concerned, I find the last 600 ft (containing the TIE fighters scene and the final battle) the most repeatable.
--------------------
The Grindcave Cinema Website
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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1633
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003
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posted January 24, 2006 04:15 AM
Thanks, Jean-Marc, you are absolutely right, you will need all five releases for the longest possible extract version.
This has been a great thread for me because it has cleared up that the Ken Pt.2 and the UFA are the same and also that all 'scope 400ft versions are the same too.
Oemer, I have an original print run of the Derann full-length 'scope / stereo version and it is fantastic. Sadly, I believe some later prints were not quite as good due to negative wear and Star Wars was finally withdrawn for this reason.
For me (like many of my generation I suppose) Star Wars is such an important film and I bought my Ken versions when I was just a kid, so they have special sentimental value for me as much as anything. I still find it amazing that I am watching the very same print I first saw some 26 years ago!
I was always fascinated by the Marketing versions and finally got hold of them last year thanks to our friend Andreas Eggeling.
I love those colourful Marketing boxes, so in the case of Star Wars, I really wanted to find copies in good quality cases.
These copies are in stunning condition boxes for their age, so despite my full-length version, the boxes are as much collector's items to me as the film inside.
I must get hold of a nice UFA box now
Also, thanks again to Jean-Marc for his pictures of the Japanese super 8 release...now how can I find one of those
PS. Just a funny aside, I remember that in 1997 when Star Wars was re-released in the cinema, Empire magazine ran a whole issue devoted to the history of the film. They had a section on "the worst Star Wars merchandise ever" or something like that.
As much as I dearly love super 8, one of the items listed was, "the the 7 minute, black & white, silent version of Star Wars".
This was followed by the simple comment, "...it kind of lost something..."
I had to laugh ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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