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Author
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Topic: FFTC- Barry Littlechild Article
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Paul Adsett
Film God
Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted January 12, 2006 06:05 PM
Adrian Winchester e-mailed me (thank's Adrian) the article in the current FFTC magazine, where Barry Littlechild takes me to task for my letter in the prior issue, where I stated that I found the Super 8 print of 'That's Entertainment 3' preferable to the DVD of the same film projected on my Panasonic AE700U projector. First let me state that I have great respect for Barry's opinion, as he is obviously an ardent and very experienced film collector, even using 35mm no less, so he obviously knows what he is talking about. My letter prompted Barry to go to a lot of trouble to do side-by-side tests between the super 8 print of TE3, the DVD projected on the Panny 700, and even a 35 mm TE3 print! ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) So I have no reason to question his opinion that DVD won hands down, although how a DVD can be better than the original 35mm source material from which it was derived, is perhaps a little hard to explain. However Barry is obviously expressing his honest opinion, just as I was expressing mine. I think the explanation between Barry's opinion and mine, is a little more subjective. Barry ran a direct side-by-side test, and I think under such conditions the far greater brightness of the Panny 700 VP would overwhelm even the GS1200, and make the S8 print look dull and lifeless in comparison. I did not do that, I viewed the DVD on the Panny and then I viewed the S8 print on the GS. So viewed separately, as stand alone presentations, my preference went to the super 8 print, which I found to be a more enjoyable visual experience than watching the DVD. It should be noted that I had previously taken the trouble to re-record the S8 sound track into stereo from the DVD sound track, so this added tremendously to the visual and audio impact and overall enjoyment of the super 8 film presentation. No matter what Barry say's, it may in fact not be realistic to do direct side-by-side comparisons between digital video and film, because they each have distinct and unique visual characteristics, or put simply, it's like comparing apples to oranges. I think it comes down to what you find the most enjoyable, the S8 print to my mind is of superb quality, whereas I found the DVD quality disappointing. So when I want to watch TE3 out comes the GS1200- not the Panny. Maybe I just have to hear the sweet purr of the GS1200 in the background, who knows! ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj
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Tom Photiou
Film God
Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003
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posted January 14, 2006 10:44 AM
I suppose with DVD and film (only an opinion here) i tink all film collectors now need to take this topic a stage further.
DVD has most certainly come a long way in its 10 years, there is no doubt that the quality is very good, excellent even, however, i think trying to compare the two is now a subject that many will always agree to disagree.
As far as DVD is concerned, those collectors now want to start comparing disc with disc. i recently bought a film on Disc where the quality was no better than the video release, it didnt matter to me as i bought because it was the uncut version, (Henry portrait of a serial killer, nothing special so it didnt matter)
There are so many advantages and disadvantages of both formats that when it comes to the point where we no longer watch the movie for the film itself, but merely sit there spotting such minor detils such as ever so slightly better colour then or no grain i can only conclude that the film for entertainment no longer counts.
Are people seriously watching an expensive movie then running it again and making notes? ![[Confused]](confused.gif) Why?
No one can ever argue about how cheap a movie is to purchase these days, with new formats around the corner will DVD be redundant (yet again) will we start buying all our new films simply to replace the DVD's we already have on the newer format, and so it goes on.
Up 4 super 8mm for a hobby, a quality hobby, and up DVD for its ability to allow us to collect films with unlimited titles and competitvness.
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Paul Adsett
Film God
Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted January 14, 2006 05:43 PM
How right you are Craig, and most audiences could care less about the format of the presentation. As long as the film is a good one, that they can get into, it really makes no difference to them. Unfortunately we film collectors are doomed to be obsessed with picture quality and we are always trying to get the last ounce of picture quality out of the tiny little super 8 frame. This of course is one of the challenges of the hobby which makes it so interesting and rewarding. So when a terrfic super 8 print comes along, like 'That's Entertainment 3', it is great to see just how good super 8 can be. I can honestly say that some of my super 8 prints have a beauty of their own, which so far I have not seen on DVD. It's not a definition thing, which DVD will always win, it's something else, unique to film and to super 8, which is very hard to define.
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The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj
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Steve Klare
Film Guy
Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted January 14, 2006 06:39 PM
It's absolutely true that general audiences don't see these things the way we do. I went to a showing of Shrek 2 on at a local college. It was shown large screen using some kind of video projector. It was fuzzy, faded and smudgy looking, in a word: awful (Note: I'm not applying this to video projection in general, just this particular show). I commented on this to the others later on, and it was the consensus among them that it looked fine!
This has personal drawbacks as well. I'll be sitting in a local theater seeing a really good movie, and all of a sudden turn to my wife and say "look at the scratches!"
-she doesn't see the scratches, instead she just enjoys the movie!
[ January 14, 2006, 08:41 PM: Message edited by: Steve Klare ]
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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...
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Michael De Angelis
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1261
From: USA
Registered: Jul 2003
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posted January 15, 2006 05:33 PM
Now I understand the problems with That's Entertainment parts 1&2.
I have the DVD of That's Entertainment part 1, and at the conlusion of the Band Wagon (Dancing in the dark) park scene with Fred Astaire and Cyd Charisse, they take a hansom cab ride. As the carraige pulls away, the camera recorded and area that would ordinarily be masked in a traditional movie palace.
The audience can see the top of the background set, and exposing the walls of the sound stage.
Similarly, when I went to see That's Entertainment part 2 in the theatres back in 1976, many movie houses at the time, were no longer designed with traditional curtains and masking. The Annie Get your Gun finale with Howard Keel, as they sing There's no business, like show Business.... exposes the top of the backdrop, and you can see the support of the backdrop and the desert mountain hills of the studio lot. When Films Inc. distributed this film for 16mm rental, it had the same inherent exposed problems that was found in 35mm.
It's interesting, that the studios have gone to great lengths to try to preserve the magic that these films as they were originally showcased, but don't realize that they are printing in many flaws that the audience should not see today.
That's less than Entertainment!
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Isn't it great that we can all communicate about this great
hobby that we love!
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Chris Quinn
Master Film Handler
Posts: 372
From: England, Bedfordshire.
Registered: Nov 2003
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posted January 15, 2006 07:01 PM
Hi every one,
I'm a dvd fan for many reasons and not ashamed to admit it. A 35mm quality print shown on a quality projector will at this moment in time win hands down on any home cinema dvd projector, even the AE900. 16mm and 8mm is another thing, and it does come down to pure preference, it's a bit like listening to music on a 12 inch vinyl record, it sounds warmer if that makes sense, but there is a lot of crackling going on in the background.
Also the quality differences in dvd's is hugh, some of the transfers are diabolical and some are great, so there is still a lot of 8mm films that can win hands down on dvd.
I am just as i was with film when i look at dvd's, always looking for the flaw and missing out on watching the film, i have to ask myself what am i doing and try to get back into just enjoying the bloody film.
If Barry really thinks that a 35mm print cannot stand up to a dvd, then i would like to see it, i am not convinced, and as i said i am a dvd fan.
Chris. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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The other half thinks i'm up to something. Shes right of course.
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Chris Quinn
Master Film Handler
Posts: 372
From: England, Bedfordshire.
Registered: Nov 2003
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posted January 16, 2006 11:44 PM
Film collecting on real celluloid is a great hobby, made even more so by the vast amount of equipment still available, and the equipment is in my opinion the big attraction for many, along with the fiddle factor. DVD is for film buffs, not that there is not film buffs in the hobby, it is just the more i have talked and watched what film collectors do the more the feeling i get that a collector will pay a good price for a reel of celluloid as long as it is a VERY NICE PRINT, the content comes second.
I would say that dvd's have another 10 good years left, but when they are replaced it will be just another medium to hold the digital information. VHS and Laser discs were analogue, the digital age is here to stay, be it encoded, if that's the right word, on to a silver disc or a small plastic card.
Picture quality via high definition is going to give us a picture quality unprecedented in the home cinema set up. In a few years time the price will come down and everyone will have access to the new technology.
Celluloid will always attract people who want to collect, but will people want to buy expensive features that will not hold up to the digital counterpart?
We'll see.
Chris.
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The other half thinks i'm up to something. Shes right of course.
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Adrian Winchester
Film God
Posts: 2941
From: Croydon, London, UK
Registered: Aug 2004
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posted January 17, 2006 08:33 PM
A lot of good points coming up here. Ultimately, Super 8 is a frame 5.2mm across, being blown up a crazy amount on your screen, while you listen to sound via one or two very thin strips of dried chemicals. There are no end of things which can cause the printing to be less than perfect, and even if the lab does a good job, poor recording, bad slitting or scratching might cause problems before you get to screen the film.
So with all these limitations and potental problems, part of the fun for me is that if you actually manage to screen a film that looks and sounds great, there's something miraculous about it! DVD can of course be immensely impressive, but I don't think it would offer me quite the same sense of achievement, even if I had the best possible equipment.
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Adrian Winchester
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Paul Adsett
Film God
Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted January 18, 2006 09:08 AM
I totally agree with John and Adrian's comments. The big thing about super 8 is the tremendous sense of acheivment you get when you project a superb quality print onto that big screen in front of an audience and it looks and sounds just great. This does not happen by chance, it means cleaning and lubricating your films, keeping your projector meticulously clean and in top running condition, using the best lens you can get your hand on, re-recording the sound into stereo or sync-pulsing if you have to, and hooking it all up to a high quality sound system in front of a good screen with a nice wide black border. In other words it takes time and effort. But if you do all that you then transforms that tiny little super 8 frame and razor thin sound tracks into a true theatrical experience. My experience is similar to John's, I have had a superb DVD projector for over a year now and we all love it because it enables us to watch films we could not otherwise see. But this has in no way diminished the enjoyment of super 8, in fact it has probably increased my appreciation of my S8 equipment and collection, and I now spend more time on S8 things than ever.
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The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj
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