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Author Topic: Looking for a Super 8mm sound projector
John Pechulis
Film Handler

Posts: 52
From: Ashley, Pa. USA
Registered: Jun 2006


 - posted November 09, 2009 09:07 AM      Profile for John Pechulis   Email John Pechulis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi all. I'm looking for a good Super 8 sound projector for capturing the soundtrack from home movies. I transfer film, but up until now, it has all been silent. I have a Chinon 330, but the wow & flutter on this machine is a little more than I can take.

I will only be using the projector to capture the sound, so it really does not need to be a good image performer. It really just needs to be stable and as low W&F as possible.

Ideally, the sound output will be connected to my soundcard and captured as a wave file, which I can then manipulate in editing software.

I've checked the usual online auction place, but I'm not sure what would be a good choice, hence the reason for asking here.

I'm not looking for the cheapest option, as you get what you pay for (and I've been there before), but then again, I'm not looking to go overkill either.

I appreciate all advice on this.

Thanks in advance, John

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History frozen in the frames of film

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Martin Jones
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1269
From: Thetford , Norfolk,England
Registered: May 2008


 - posted November 09, 2009 09:33 AM      Profile for Martin Jones   Email Martin Jones   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The old favourites... Eumig 900 series, or Elmo ST 600(180)D Stereo in the lower price brackets. Other the Elmo ST 1200 etc, the Bauer 800 series, or the Braun Visacaustic models, if you are prepared to pay more.

Martin

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Retired TV Service Engineer
Ongoing interest in Telecine....

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John Pechulis
Film Handler

Posts: 52
From: Ashley, Pa. USA
Registered: Jun 2006


 - posted November 09, 2009 09:41 AM      Profile for John Pechulis   Email John Pechulis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks for the quick response Martin.

I'd like to stay away from the Eumigs because of their drive system. The rubber friction pads on the main drive wheels tend to turn to goo and the replacement part is expensive (not to mention it's a real bear to remove it from the drive shaft).

I'd like to stick to a simple belt drive if at all possible. I know the Elmos fit in this category.

Since I'm buying blind from the online auction site, what are the usual pitfalls (broken belts, etc.) I should expect when buying an Elmo? As it seems most of the sellers seem to never test the machine with film and won't vouch for the sound.

Thanks again, John

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Martin Jones
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1269
From: Thetford , Norfolk,England
Registered: May 2008


 - posted November 09, 2009 10:01 AM      Profile for Martin Jones   Email Martin Jones   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
My own personal advice is that for the reasons you mentioned, stay away from the Auction Sites. Try the 8mm Sales section of this Forum; you stand a better chance of getting something in good nick, and you can always ask for a guarantee of performance before you buy.
I suggested the Eumig 900 series because many good examples are around in good condition; again try the search function for other opinions.

Martin

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Retired TV Service Engineer
Ongoing interest in Telecine....

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John Pechulis
Film Handler

Posts: 52
From: Ashley, Pa. USA
Registered: Jun 2006


 - posted November 09, 2009 10:17 AM      Profile for John Pechulis   Email John Pechulis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks again Martin. Unfortunately, I'm in the states and much of the equipment in the sale section is abroad. Shipping costs would make the sale prohibitive.

Plus it seems many of the sales are outdated.

JP

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John W. Black
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 536
From: Deptford,N.J.
Registered: Mar 2008


 - posted November 10, 2009 12:14 AM      Profile for John W. Black   Author's Homepage   Email John W. Black   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've had dozens of Eumigs for over 30 years and I never had a pad goo up.On the other hand,have had a few others with broken belts.

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Beat em or burn em,they go up pretty quick

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Gary Crawford
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 979
From: Manassas, VA. USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted November 10, 2009 07:08 AM      Profile for Gary Crawford   Email Gary Crawford   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John, Steve Osborne of the Reel Image in Ohio....still has some st1200hd's ...some in mint shape...and tested. I suggest you call him ..leave a message and he'll get back to you in the evenings....he stands by what he sells and is a gentleman...his phone is 937-296-9036. He also sells all sorts of new and used films , equipment...reels...bulbs, you name it. He won't sell you a piece of junk. As you say, you get what you pay for.

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John Pechulis
Film Handler

Posts: 52
From: Ashley, Pa. USA
Registered: Jun 2006


 - posted November 10, 2009 10:29 AM      Profile for John Pechulis   Email John Pechulis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks John. Believe it or not, my telecine machine is based on an Eumig chassis (Mark 8). While the rubber pads weren't exactly "goo" when I received it, they were quite worn. I have gutted the machine and redesigned the drive system and it uses pic speed controlled DC motor.

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s63/JhnZ33/Telecine/JSCAN8_1.jpg
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s63/JhnZ33/Telecine/Eumig3.jpg

The drive wheel assembly was a nightmare to remove. I had to cut the assembly off with a cutoff wheel.

Gary: Thanks for the info. I will check it out if the Elmo 600 I bid on and won from the online auction site turns out to be a dud.

JP

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Martin Jones
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1269
From: Thetford , Norfolk,England
Registered: May 2008


 - posted November 10, 2009 03:00 PM      Profile for Martin Jones   Email Martin Jones   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John, Very impressive conversion job; neatly presented and executed and obviously involving a lot of thought.
I'm very interested in transfer myself and am just starting on a new machine which I hope will be an improvement on my previous Mk 3 machine. It's not a subject that attracts great interest on this Forum; if you would be interested in sharing both information and experiences you can contact me on
blagdonian(at)btinternet(dot)com
I'm particularly interested in your drive conversion on this Eumig machine.

Martin

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Retired TV Service Engineer
Ongoing interest in Telecine....

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John Pechulis
Film Handler

Posts: 52
From: Ashley, Pa. USA
Registered: Jun 2006


 - posted November 10, 2009 04:18 PM      Profile for John Pechulis   Email John Pechulis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You have mail Martin

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John Pechulis
Film Handler

Posts: 52
From: Ashley, Pa. USA
Registered: Jun 2006


 - posted November 13, 2009 07:59 PM      Profile for John Pechulis   Email John Pechulis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A little update. Managed to pick up an Elmo ST-600 M off the online auction site. No power cord, no take-up reel in the auction (was noted in the description) and seller was unsure if it even worked. Picked it up for $100.00. I figured I'd take a chance.

Received the projector today and it sure was filthy, like it sat for quite some time. Before I even plugged in a power cord, I removed the rear cover to make a visual check of the mechanicals. The takeup reel belt was in broken pieces of jelly-like rubber, so I replaced the belt.

Then I couldn't get any sound. Turns out the center pin of the speaker plug had become unsoldered, so I resoldered the pin and the sound was there. Then the bulb blows - jeesh! So I ordered some EFP bulbs.

I can't be sure, cause the bulb blew too quickly, but 24 fps seems a little fast and 18 fps seems a little slow. Anyone know how to verify the speed of both 18 and 24 fps?

TIA, John

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John Hermes
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 139
From: La Mesa, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 2008


 - posted November 13, 2009 10:59 PM      Profile for John Hermes   Email John Hermes   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Elmo projectors are pretty robust. I have gotten several on eBay. Once you get your new belts installed and the projector cleaned up, it should probably be fine. Another thing I do with old projectors is clean the old grease from the cam, and then apply a new coat. I like Super Lube grease for this. I dip a Q-tip into the tube and then wipe the inside of the cam with it.

I believe the ST-600 has the 18 & 24 fps speed pots in the back. There are 18 teeth on the sprockets. I usually make a slash mark with a felt pen on the front of the sprocket, and then count the revolutions against a watch or stop watch. For 18 fps, the sprocket should revolve twenty times in twenty seconds. Adjust the 18 fps pot to or fro until it is right on. Same thing with the 24 fps speed, except the sprocket will rotate twenty times in fifteen seconds. You can increase the time for more accuracy, but I have found twenty seconds to be enough with a stop watch.

[ November 15, 2009, 12:36 PM: Message edited by: John Hermes ]

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John Hermes

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John Pechulis
Film Handler

Posts: 52
From: Ashley, Pa. USA
Registered: Jun 2006


 - posted November 14, 2009 07:59 AM      Profile for John Pechulis   Email John Pechulis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
John Hermes wrote:
I believe the ST-600 has the 18 & 24 fps speed pots in the back.

It does and in a very convenient location.

quote:
There are 18 teeth on the sprockets. I usually make a slash mark with a felt pen on the front of the sprocket, and then count the revolutions against a watch or stop watch. For 18 fps, the sprocket should revolve twenty times in twenty seconds. Adjust the 18 fps pot to or fro until it is right on. Same thing with the 24 fps speed except the sprocket will rotate fifteen times in twenty seconds. You can increase the time for more accuracy, but I have found twenty seconds to be enough with a stop watch.
Thanks John, I'll try that.

JP

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Tony Stucchio
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 625
From: New Jersey
Registered: Dec 2005


 - posted November 15, 2009 12:03 PM      Profile for Tony Stucchio   Email Tony Stucchio   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
For 18 fps, the sprocket should revolve twenty times in twenty seconds. Adjust the 18 fps pot to or fro until it is right on. Same thing with the 24 fps speed except the sprocket will rotate fifteen times in twenty seconds.
No -- at 24 fps, it will rotate 20 times in 15 seconds, not vice versa.

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John Hermes
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 139
From: La Mesa, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 2008


 - posted November 15, 2009 12:29 PM      Profile for John Hermes   Email John Hermes   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You got me on that one - sorry for the brain freeze (I have edited my original post). I haven't set my speed pots in a while, since once you set them, they tend to hold well. As I recall for 24 fps, I let the projector run for thirty seconds and the count should be forty rotations. The sprocket does have 18 teeth, though, and the system is good for setting proper speed. I do transfer work, including sound film, and need the speed right on.

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John Hermes

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Tony Stucchio
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 625
From: New Jersey
Registered: Dec 2005


 - posted November 15, 2009 06:27 PM      Profile for Tony Stucchio   Email Tony Stucchio   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
You got me on that one - sorry for the brain freeze (I have edited my original post).
[Big Grin] We all make them!
Actually, your method is a great tip -- never thought of that before. Counting the sprocket teeth -- it works!
Now I've been able to prove what my ears were telling me -- my Elmo runs at 22 fps.
[Frown]

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John Pechulis
Film Handler

Posts: 52
From: Ashley, Pa. USA
Registered: Jun 2006


 - posted November 15, 2009 07:01 PM      Profile for John Pechulis   Email John Pechulis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Taking into account the possible human delay between starting the projector and stopwatch, the stopwatch method pretty much confirms the speed is damn close:

18 fps - 18 revolutions in 17.98 seconds
24 fps - 20 revolutions in 15.04 seconds

Close enough to leave any adjustments alone.

JP

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John Hermes
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 139
From: La Mesa, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 2008


 - posted November 15, 2009 11:44 PM      Profile for John Hermes   Email John Hermes   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"Taking into account the possible human delay between starting the projector and stopwatch, the stopwatch method pretty much confirms the speed is damn close:

18 fps - 18 revolutions in 17.98 seconds
24 fps - 20 revolutions in 15.04 seconds

Close enough to leave any adjustments alone."

Yes, that's pretty close. When I do my check, I have the projector running and then start the stopwatch when the slash comes to the top of its revolution. I count twenty rotations (for 18 fps)and stop the watch right as the slash hits the top of the revolution. Whenever you put on a new belt, you will probably want to let it break in for a bit, and then check the speed again.

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John Hermes

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