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Author Topic: Which comes first? The projector or the Film?
Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: #399R K.O.A. Mountian Home, ID. 83647
Registered: Jul 2005


 - posted December 17, 2009 08:36 AM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Okay, that's kind of a play on the old saying ...

Which comes first, the chicken or the egg?

But in this case, which will become more rare?

Well functioning projectors?

Films?

I think it's projectors. I have tons of very fine non-faded films, but I run into more and more problems with projectors.

My new crusade, therefore, is the search for some brand new, in the box, projectors, as well as, (once upon finding great projectors), a great large supply of bulbs for said projectors.

Any comments?

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Christian Bjorgen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 996
From: Kvinnherad, Norway
Registered: Oct 2009


 - posted December 17, 2009 09:18 AM      Profile for Christian Bjorgen   Author's Homepage   Email Christian Bjorgen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Projectors, no doubt about it.

With film, all you need to worry about is degrading of the material, and colour fade of course, but that's not "critical" to the film "working". With projectors however, there are thousands of parts that can break, and getting spares is pretty hard now.

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Well who’s on first? Yeah. Go ahead and tell me. Who. The guy on first. Who. The guy playin’ first base. Who. The guy on first. Who is on first! What are you askin’ me for? I’m askin’ you!

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Claus Harding
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1149
From: Washington DC
Registered: Oct 2006


 - posted December 17, 2009 09:52 AM      Profile for Claus Harding   Email Claus Harding   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I would say 'both', assuming we are talking about showing top-quality images.

The parts/repair issue is a big one, especially in 8mm.
Increasingly, the more common better machines, like the ST1200s will be the 'winners' in that, much like with 16mm Eiki SSls, there are lots around for parts.

But someone still has to fix them.

Good prints are not easy to come by. And I mean 'good', not partially faded, fixed, scratched or such.
Eastmancolor has destroyed so many films over the years that it has had quite an impact on both the 8 and 16mm markets.

The rare titles are being kept by their owners, the newly-made titles are very expensive, and many affordable titles are ruined by people storing them badly for years before selling.

We can't win. But we can lose as gracefully as possible [Wink]

Claus.

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"Why are there shots of deserts in a scene that's supposed to take place in Belgium during the winter?" (Review of 'Battle of the Bulge'.)

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Stewart John Boyle
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 170
From: Glasgow,Scotland
Registered: Oct 2009


 - posted December 17, 2009 09:56 AM      Profile for Stewart John Boyle   Email Stewart John Boyle   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
All i can say Osi that when you run out of room for all your projectors,i have a spare room you could use to store the overspill!! [Smile]
Happy Hunting
Stewart

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I`ve, seen things you people wouldn`t believe,

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Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted December 17, 2009 10:42 AM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I feel that my projectors will long outlast me. I have a Pathe Baby from 1922 which still runs like new and I am sure it will last at least another 100 years. My GS1200'S by and large are running fine, with the little auto-thread micro-switches being the only item that seems to need periodic replacement, and I wonder if the heads will ever wear out. My Eumigs are all fully functional, although I limit their useage because of the shorter head life on these machines.
Black and white films also seem to last forever. I have 9.5mm Pathe Baby film from the 1920's that still project beautifully.
Color film, as Claus has mentioned, is entirely another issue. Most of the color digests that I collected in the 1970's and 1980's are badly faded, and will probably be clear film in another 10 years. Thankfully though my Derann color prints all look like new and should last a very long time. I will no longer buy used color films unless they are known to be low fade stock.

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The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
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Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Tony Stucchio
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 625
From: New Jersey
Registered: Dec 2005


 - posted December 18, 2009 05:18 PM      Profile for Tony Stucchio   Email Tony Stucchio   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I thought this thread would be more like which was invented first.
Let's throw in the movie camera.

A camera can't be used without undeveloped film, and vice versa.
A projector can't be used without developed film, and vice versa.
So in what order were these invented? Serious question -- never really thought about it before.

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted December 18, 2009 05:30 PM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Film came first, for still photography, as an improvement on glass plates. (...which would be really awkward for movies!)

Movie cameras came next, and they used roll film to capture images.

The first moving photographed images weren't projected but shown on small screens, and then projectors came later.

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Michael Dixon
Junior
Posts: 29
From: East Bend, NC, USA
Registered: Nov 2009


 - posted December 18, 2009 05:35 PM      Profile for Michael Dixon   Email Michael Dixon   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
In my case, I bought an 8MM camera in October 1963. Had no money, but opened a revolving credit account, my first ever credit purchase. Started shooting film. Later after the camera was paid for, bought a projector on revolving credit. Glad I did use credit to buy since I have some footage that would not exist if I had waited to save the money. Never bought anything else on time payments. Later bought Elmo camera and Eumig projector in Super8. Started buying films in 8mm and Super8, many of them from Blackhawk, a few from Niles and other sources.

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: #399R K.O.A. Mountian Home, ID. 83647
Registered: Jul 2005


 - posted December 18, 2009 06:26 PM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Paul ...

I wouldn't worry about buying Eastmancolor prints, as long as you get the print before color fade sets in. I have had very good success keeping the color really good on my Eastman and Kodak SP prints. That is, I recieved them with great color.
The only faded prints I have I recieved that way.

If you limit your film search to only low fade color stocks, there are many a desireable print that you'll never have in your collection, as some earlier releases were only put out on Super 8 before the advent, (in general) of low fade stock.

Just my advice.

There were some other great points as well. I am sure that for years to come, there will be old photography stores that will have assorted good projectors, never used, in they're basements, and they will be more than happy to sell them, at bargain prices, thinking, "My Gawd, at least I'm selling it at a loss!"

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Michael Dixon
Junior
Posts: 29
From: East Bend, NC, USA
Registered: Nov 2009


 - posted December 18, 2009 07:47 PM      Profile for Michael Dixon   Email Michael Dixon   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Storing projectors in the basement or the attic is not good. Store them in the area of the building in which you live.

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Michael O'Regan
Film God

Posts: 3085
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted December 19, 2009 02:31 AM      Profile for Michael O'Regan   Email Michael O'Regan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
In 16mm I feel it'll be lack of projectors and parts. Theres plenty of film out there.

Incidentally, Osi, as time marches on it is becoming more and more difficult to acquire Eastman prints before the colour has faded, as you suggested to Paul Adsett.

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: #399R K.O.A. Mountian Home, ID. 83647
Registered: Jul 2005


 - posted December 19, 2009 08:47 AM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Very true, Micheal ...

However, I finally found a completely unfaded vintage print of "Conduct Unbecoming", which is now in cold storage, (unless, of course, I wish to watch it).

So, it is possible to find unfaded Eastman prints. It is a sure thing that not all Eastman film stock was created equal. The later, early 80's eastman was atrocious, but the earlier , early to mid 70's eastman has held up quite well, given a perfect set of circumstances, proper storage being the most important, of course.

It's why I haven't lost hope on finding a good color copy of "Grizzly Adams".

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Michael O'Regan
Film God

Posts: 3085
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted December 19, 2009 12:49 PM      Profile for Michael O'Regan   Email Michael O'Regan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I hope you find one, Osi.
[Smile]

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