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Author
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Topic: Film prices, (New thread From films from Ian)
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Tom Photiou
Film God
Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003
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posted September 02, 2012 08:07 AM
I have started this new thread from the previous thread Films from Ian, (hope you dont mind Doug & Brad)
Here is the problem, ive been looking forward to a list from Ian since before last Christmas,
Ebay and the collector, (us) is the big problem, it is going to kill our hobby at an accelerated pace, & please note,I AM AS GUILTY AS OTHERS TO!
As previously mentioned so many people on e bay dont seem to grasp that there are still dealers in buisness, Ian, Barry, Paul, Reel Image, CHC Phil and some others, however, (as per conversations with dealers), people are paying scilly money for films especially rare and good quality prints since Deranns demise. Right now we are seeing a 400ft digest with £46 bid on it which isnt even that rare, faded porn disguised by the seller as "glamour art" so they dont get it taken off by the ebay eyes, films are going for 20+ for feeble faded 200ft prints , the list is endless, so while people pay scilly money for films on e bay why should dealers bother to go to the trouble to produce & post or e mail out lists.
I have to be extremely criticle of myself here because very recently ive made purchases from CHC. In the past ive pretty much stuck with Derann, Ian and some from Paul, however, having took the trouble to actually log on the CHC website i found three titles ive been hunting down for several years, and all three plus a trailer were a fraction of the price ive seen elswhere. Now i must pull my finger out and subscribe to his list with £7 of stamps, collectors need to check ALL dealer lists otherwise e bay will almost certainly see the end of reasonable prices. Already 400ft cutdowns, (once sold for a few pounds at Ealing etc are now back up to between 15-35.00)
Ian does have films for sale and i'm sure a list will follow but as i was once told by a dealer, & i quote, " i had a musical feature i was going to list for £60 on my own lists, i decided to try it on e-bay and got £175. Films ive put on list for around 50 are going for in excess of 150",
Do you see what in saying? & as i already state, ive also sold on ebay myself because you can definatly get more money for them, its human nature, I am a firm beliver in using dealers however, greed soon sets in to us all and the nonsense of "well im only using dealers to protect the hobby" is pretty much bollocks.
I wonder if the amount of dosh dealers can get on e bay is why they dont put an advert for there own buisness on the 8mm page on the ebay site, (like the old film company does at the bottom of the 8mm listings)?
What do you Think??
BTW, look out for the next film collector number 3 Magazine!!!!!!
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Hugh Thompson Scott
Film God
Posts: 3063
From: Gt. Clifton,Cumbria,England
Registered: Jan 2012
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posted September 02, 2012 10:33 AM
I think the point Tom is making is that we all had a status quo
where we all had a knowledge of what we could buy and sell
our films for.Now it seems that silly money is being paid for copies
of films that are quite common.This state of affairs will eventually
burn itself out,take the antique dealers,where prices on various
items fluctuate according to the demand.When all is said and done,the film is only worth what the buyer is prepared to pay for it
For instance,I would love a 16mm print of "THE BLOOD DEMON"
and will pay over and above,but to someone else,it's a waste
of money and not worth a second look.Horses for courses.
I still believe the public at large think this hobby is washed up
otherwise there would'nt be loads of cine gear and film going
to landfill.It's only some folk that think because they have paid
a small fortune for a particular 400' spool, that that, is it's actual
worth.Eventually the penny will drop,and with it the realisation
that the huge sum of money paid for a 17minute extract,
would have been better spent elsewhere,especially when trying to recupe their losses.
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Tom Photiou
Film God
Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003
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posted September 02, 2012 12:04 PM
Winbert, your are right in what you say, our collections appear to be holding good value, indeed increasing.
But Hugh is spot on, i understand that its all about supply and demand etc, but simply with Derann now gone, (new films are still being made availible via Phil at CHC, it seems mad that so many people buy on e-bay probably because they dont know that second hand dealers exist, we see many newbies on here introducing themselves and asking "apart from e-bay or this forum where elese can i get films and equipment". Yet type in super 8mm film sales on google and there they are.
Good or bad, e bay & the net has certainly changed the way we all do buisness, its ironic that its been the demise of many buisnesses (large shop chains etc) with goods availible so much heaper than in the shops, yet our hobby, all be it very confined to collectors only, seems to be becoming antique in its prices.
Oddley enough with blu-ray projection being so cheap now i guess it just goes to show what we are still prepared to pay for our films with there colours fading (in some cases not all) and little black scratches here and there.
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Graham Ritchie
Film God
Posts: 4001
From: New Zealand
Registered: Feb 2006
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posted September 02, 2012 02:49 PM
I must be the only one here that does not buy or sell on Ebay. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) In the past I always prefered to buy from Derann. One reason I felt was the need to support the hobby for the long term through them, and also the excellent dealings I had, in particular with Gary over those many years, so my hard earned cash went there way.
I wont sell those films etc because they are all a one off. Once gone thats it, and I could never justify of afford the cost to get any of them back.
What is happing out here at film conventions is that where once folk would put a film up for sale at a ok price and help others with sought after titles, now some are buying those films etc not for themselves but to sell on the internet, to make a profit. The result of this we are seeing less and less being put up for sale. This hobby is not about making $$$$$ in my mind its about the enjoyement of film and film projection and sharing that with others.
I have sold the odd film in the past and would tell the buyer I will send it, but dont send me the money unless you are happy with it. If not, just send the film back, other films sold at a local level I would set up the projector and when they came I would insist they watch it first, then they know what they are buying, plus with no come back on me at a later date.
Anyway I have done my dash with buying "its over" and hope to continue projecting for a few more years yet with the stuff I do have.
Graham.
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Tom Photiou
Film God
Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003
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posted September 02, 2012 02:52 PM
Austin, ebay is definatly not a good way to price films or use a guide, the real way to do this is to go to the BFCC website and use the dealer links, i.e,
http://www.classichomecinema.co.uk/
indi8films@aol.com Independent8 Web Page
http://www.fosterfilms.co.uk/
http://www.bfcc.biz/
The BFCC link will point you to a few others.
As already mentioned your collection is only going to make you good money if you want sell up and leave the hobby, but once sold, (as i have found out in the past), you may regret it because next time what you paid £15 for may very well cost you £50.Lee is exactly spot on to, its up to us to remind others how films were once projected, digital is here to stay and the film industry can make mega bucks much faster without having to process expensive film and have it all shipped all over the world.
Joe also makes a very good point that super 8 has always been a very expensive hobby, i was looking at some old film mags last week, the price of a new 400ft colour sound film in the 70s was £29.99. How did Mr average ever afford that back then? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
I guess as we all know, that the hobby need to be advertised and kept in the public, new collectors must be made aware of the few dealers we have left and cetainly that e-bay is definatly not a good way to find out the price of films, as for sellers, (inc myself on occassion),well, you cant blame them for wanting to get as much as they can for there films,
I once part exchanged three of my films through Derann and they paid me peanuts, i think it was around £20-£25 for around three good films, one was a feature & i had to pay to post them off so it was a waste of time, today i know on e-bay i could probably get at least a hundred for them plus postage, hence why dealers are dwindling and collectors pay top wack on line.
Times change so fast dont they, i know some years ago i hated e-bay with a vengence, but as i was shown the advantages i joined the club and more or less had to move with the times.
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Greg Marshall
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 612
From: Nashville, TN USA
Registered: Sep 2008
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posted September 02, 2012 07:49 PM
I have to say, I've never had any issues with buyers on Ebay, nor sellers. In the past 6-9 months, I've sold around 150 trailers, toons, and features, and have had no problems. These funds I use to buy different product for my outdoor showings, with new trailers, toons, and features. Most of the time, I've sold a title for what I have in it.... few times more, few times less, it averages out. I have my favorites I'll keep, but in order to supply new product to my showings, I need to move some product out. I've vowed that I would never go into debt, and not use my everyday funds to fund this hobby, and so far, I've been pretty successful at doing so. I'm pretty content with items that show up on Ebay. I do, though, miss Derann's listings, I have turned to gain some product from Paul Foster and CHC. I don't buy to just buy.... I buy to entertain my guests. Ebay's fees are there, and won't change. You just have to decide what you want to sell a title for, work in those fees to cover those costs, if you can.
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Christian Bjorgen
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 996
From: Kvinnherad, Norway
Registered: Oct 2009
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posted September 07, 2012 03:21 AM
In my honest opinion, the issue isn't as much with the general pricing, because like several other members here have stated: it's nice to see that our investment is becoming more valuable!
However; I think it is a real issue that cheap, faded and down right poor prints are fetching similar prices as LPP prints in some cases. For instance: I recently found an eBay seller who had about a dozen or so auction going for various Tom&Jerry 200 footers. Out of these nearly all were Waltons and FilmOffice, with decent colour and wear, but also, there were two Deranns, who both looked stunning. And the annoying part: They were all priced according to the "Derann-pricing-range", which is fair for Derann prints or other low fade/LPP prints, but not for faded ol' Waltons!
I think it is a serious problem that seller do not realize that film isnt just film; it's a whole science to it! It's like vinyl records: a scratched record doesnt fetch as good a price as a mint record, just because it's the same title!
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Well who’s on first? Yeah. Go ahead and tell me. Who. The guy on first. Who. The guy playin’ first base. Who. The guy on first. Who is on first! What are you askin’ me for? I’m askin’ you!
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Akshay Nanjangud
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 637
From: Dallas, TX
Registered: Nov 2011
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posted September 10, 2012 12:54 AM
This discussion has caught my fancy from the day it started. But I didn't know how to respond. Which side am I on? Do I want higher prices or lower prices? It is very hard to pick a side, at least I can't pick. So I will just lay out some thoughts.
PRICES GOING UP IS GOOD: This argument over-all is easy for established collectors. If you are already in the hobby, it is obvious good news that the value of what you have is high. Also, collectors must have known folks who weren't in favor of collecting, my friends say things like, "I'd rather move with time." or say they "embrace new technology". The present day high value of prints must have surprised some of those naysayers; it surprises everyone I know. So, this high price should give a good feeling to you guys; years and decades of collecting still holds financial value. I ask collectors here, those collecting for decades, those having prints from Red Fox, Derann, Lone Wolf, ...... tell me how would you feel if Die Hard or El Cid or Disney prints were trading like they do on video tapes? I can visualize a few upset wives and some disturbed minds.
IN FAVOR OF LOW PRICES: I can see two reasons to support modest pricing. One would be for newer and younger collectors. The high pricing of prints is going to put off teenaged collectors and younger students, these impressionable minds are the future of the hobby. Their interests need to be protected, the hobby will then stay secure for sure. There is one other reason to keep prices low. The high prices are going to make folks, who have no love for films, cinema, movies, into "collectors". In reality, these folks will be looking to making a fast buck from film trading. I feel okay paying good money to film dealers and members on this forum knowing they would have done their best to maintain a print. Sure they may have had accidents, but their intention towards film maintenance are honest. But paying someone with no film-handling skills the same $$ as paying Steve Osborne, Ian O' Riley, Steve Siegel or forum members is not okay with me. Lower prices will help attract only genuine film lovers. This is just what we want.
With all this, and some more, going through my mind am undecided on this topic.
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Christian Bjorgen
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 996
From: Kvinnherad, Norway
Registered: Oct 2009
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posted September 10, 2012 04:19 AM
Very good post, Akshay!
I very much agree on the fact that low prices do attract younger collectors (like myself). There's no way I could, on a part-time salary and with student expenses, pay hundreds of dollars for a feature print. That's when it's OK to have cheap films on eBay, faded, worn, but fun nonetheless! And then the expensive features can come later!
What I feel is the problem, as stated in my previous post, is that some eBay sellers turn prices UP on the cheap prints to match the prices of Ian, Steve etc. Now with Ian, Steve and the others you get top notch films at a very reasonable price, but paying the same amount for a faded, worn, beet-red copy of "Gullivers Travels" is absurd!
My point is: There needs to be a solid line between cheap films and quality films, and prices to reflect this. I don't mind the LPP, lowfade, full length features being several hundred dollars, because they are worth it!, as long as I can fetch a cheap cartoon to play with now and then without having to sell my left arm.
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Well who’s on first? Yeah. Go ahead and tell me. Who. The guy on first. Who. The guy playin’ first base. Who. The guy on first. Who is on first! What are you askin’ me for? I’m askin’ you!
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Hugh Thompson Scott
Film God
Posts: 3063
From: Gt. Clifton,Cumbria,England
Registered: Jan 2012
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posted September 10, 2012 07:10 AM
To be perfectly honest,I'm not concerned on whether the value of
my film collection has gone up or down,I got involved in this
hobby because I have a genuine love of the cinema,and all the
various types of film that eventually made it to the sub standard
gauges.I don't collect film to sit on a shelf and think "that's
another one under my belt",I view and enjoy them, I'm not that
concerned with how much a particular title cost, I for one was
still buying film while many had deserted the hobby for video
telling me how much cheaper tape was as opposed to film.
My argument was that I had taken the plunge with film, and was not going to change.Thankfully,I'm not alone with this view
or we wouldn't have this excellent Forum of like minded folk.
As someone mentioned,Ebay is a mixed blessing, but I do think
it could be a step in the wrong direction for dealers, as the very
nature of the word says you deal in film,if they have to resort
to Ebay, it dilutes the description of dealer, as they are just another punter,plus it feeds the fire that people are going to
do the same and eventually the individual dealers will cease
to be as the influx of films to sell will dry up.I can fully appreciate that the chance of increased profit is a huge temptation,but there's no reason why the dealers can't have
some of the titles on their own lists up for an "in house auction"
Just a thought.
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