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Topic: Beaulieu Take-Up Problem.

Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted March 26, 2015 05:14 AM

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Oh ok Rob,but can the pin not be straightened perhaps? If not it can be filed flat and then drilled and a new pin fitted, if you cannot obtain new from Wittners.

Also as I am seeing the drawing, it appears item 14 (the screw) is what engages with the Ratchet pin through the hole of the otherwise blank support disc in order to drive the back disc and then the hub spindle eventually.

Is this incorrect?

If so,
A/ What job does the screw do?(item 14)
B/ What does engage with the actual Ratchet (18) if not the screw?
C/ What is the solitary hole for in the otherwise blank Ratchet Support Disc?

As I say Rob, this part of the machine is something completely new to me as I have never had reason to investigate any section of either the front or rear drive clutches or indeed, Ratchet mechanisms so far, so I am learning all the time with this one. [Confused]

[Confused]

[Confused]

Also Rob, if you look again at the drawing, I am certain it shows the disc and ratchet the opposite way around to your photo.

From the drawing the long part of the centre tube and bore with the flat on it points out whilst the ratchet is on the inside of this same support plate.

Your photo shows the tube with the flat on it, on the same side as the ratchet (18) not as opposites as the drawing suggests. [Confused]

[Confused]

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1633
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003

posted March 26, 2015 05:28 AM

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Me too!!

It seems part 16 drives support 19.

Turning forward, this pushes the ratchet pin (the worn bit) against the hole in the other ratchet supprt (18) and thus it engages and drives 23 to provide take-up.

In reverse, 18 pushes the ratchet pin the other way to disengage 23, so it does not turn.

Hope that makes sense!! [Roll Eyes]

[Roll Eyes]

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Simon McConway
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posted March 26, 2015 05:42 AM

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I have a clicking sound every one second on mine. Any advice?

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted March 26, 2015 05:44 AM

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I am off in a couple of days so I may just have a look inside mine just to gain a better understanding of the situation.

If the Ratchet fits between the two support plates, then my theory stands up I think, however if the Ratchet fits on the outside of the last plate (the drawing does not make this 100% clear), then I can see what you are saying Rob.

I guess I will just have to see for myself as I will need to know at one time or another just how these parts fit and work together.

I am still no better off at this stage in understanding what the 10mm solitary screw does if it has no part to play in the Ratchet mechanism. It appears to me that the only thing it can do is come through those plates when assembled via the hole.
It is after all 10mm long??

BTW They all do it Simon, I think its the Ratchet mechanism, whichever one is "passing over" so to speak.
In other words, not the driven spindle at the time.

Or at least I did until this morning! Ha ha

Back to topic:

Either way by the time I have gone inside mine, I can take a detailed drawing of the Ratchet and get one or two made to have as spares or pass onto you Rob if you get no joy at Wittners with the Ratchet.

To me that is the only part that appears damaged enough to warrant replacement on yours Rob.

That shaft you mention Rob (16), appears only to have a flat on it at the very end to engage with disc 19.(again the drawing does not make this abundantly clear).

If this is the case there is nothing for the ratchet to bite hold of on the plain section of the round main drive drive shaft and make this ratchet mechanism work... following what you have seen during dismantling it from the way it was assembled??

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Rob Young.
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posted March 26, 2015 06:26 AM

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On the back of part 23, there is fitted a metal part with teeth for the ratchet to engage (not shown on diagram).

I'm sure it will become clear when you look for yourself, Andrew; I was hesitant at first but laid each part out in the order they need to be reassembled and actually, I don't think its that complex, although maybe not the most robust design...classic Beaulieu...

I agree, a new ratchet part would do for now.

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Paul Browning
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posted March 26, 2015 07:47 AM

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The Elmo roller bearing idea would fix it, there is room for all the bits too, I wonder if Edwin could make that toothed wheel with the correct size for the clutch roller bearing ?, maybe. What's the part cost Rob, do you know .

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Rob Young.
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posted March 26, 2015 12:06 PM

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Had an automated email response from Wittner; they are closed until April 7th apparently.

I will try again then and see if they have the parts and at what cost.

Keep you posted!

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Andrew Woodcock
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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted March 26, 2015 02:11 PM

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Thanks Rob and your last explanation makes.things a little clearer now thanks.

[ April 04, 2015, 08:48 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

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Rob Young.
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posted April 08, 2015 12:02 PM

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Just an update as this may all be useful to other Beaulieu users in the future.

Wittner were very prompt in telling me that part 22, the ratchet is still available and the cost is 24.50 euro (plus a 4.50 euro surcharge for pats under 40.00 euro) with shipping to UK at 11.50 euro.

That plus 19% VAT and the total charge is 48.20 euro, or £36.52 pound sterling.

Not cheap, but thank goodness they have one and they are very polite, quick and helpful - something you can't always put a price on.

Sadly parts 18 and 19 (the ratchet supports) are no longer available as stock. However, they did say that they could possibly have them machined for me at a cost of 80-100 euros each.

Of course that isn't cheap either, but I just loved their enthusiasm (like many of the helpful forum members here) in even offering to have these made for me.

So, the ratchet is ordered and I'll post an update when everything is back together again.

[Smile]

[Smile]

[Smile]

[Smile]

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted April 08, 2015 12:32 PM

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Hey, this is fabulous news for you Rob!! Cannot wait now until you report back to us all very soon now on a 100% perfect working beautiful Beaulieu as I am certain you will Rob. [Smile]

[Smile]

[Smile]

Just go easy on that Red paint for the respray and please make sure you use no more than 2 gallon of WD40 to lubricate all those shiny new parts. [Wink]

[Wink]

[Big Grin]

[Big Grin]

Joking aside..I actually think those prices sound quite reasonable by Wittners standards. The plastic spindles we both purchased for less than 100 euros (which is still extremely expensive) have rocketed to around 250 euros now I think when I last looked.

These machines have been described to me in the past by very reputable people within the industry as the Rolls Royce of Super 8mm projectors. At the price of the new spares nowadays from Wittners, it seems they are also comparing them to the luxury car manufacturer!

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Paul Browning
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posted April 08, 2015 12:41 PM

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Could have got something sorted there rob, honestly mate, that's a lot of money for these simple parts, nearly £200.00 with p/p. I still think my suggestion with the elmo parts and the existing timing gear would work, and using that original gear, bearing is £3.25, Unfortunately they got you by the short and curlies, as polite as they are sadly.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted April 08, 2015 01:00 PM

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It all depends on how much you value the authenticity of these machines Paul. For me personally, I would always be very reluctant to use anything but genuine Beaulieu parts. The way I look upon it is, unless you do some scientific testing on any new design you implement, you just never truly know if this has a knock on effect on the rest of the mechanism in an adverse manner.

I have seen Robs machine on here and its a beautiful authentic example that appears very well cared for indeed. Therefore to me, Rob won't begrudge spending the money nor have any regrets I would have thought, once it is all working as per original design spec again.

[ April 08, 2015, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Rob Young.
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posted April 09, 2015 03:44 AM

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Hi Paul, I know what you're saying, but £37.00 isn't the end of the world if it fixes the problem, and to be honest, I'm no engineer, so if I can remedy this properly without huge cost then I'll be happy.

Of course, I would have to think very hard about spending 100 euros per part for the other components, but I think it will work without replacing them as they are just slightly worn as opposed to worn out!

Andrew has a point; I'd like to keep the projector within it's original design if I can because, well, I'm kinda fond of it!

But seriously, the take-up does need quite finite adjustment on this machine. Too much tension and it can possibly damage film at the start of a reel, by pulling the spring loaded guide roller too hard; the film can then touch the base of the lamp house. Too little and by the end of a 600ft spool, you have film sagging.

Basically, it's hard enough to get the tension right and consistent with Beaulieu's original parts, let alone start replacing them.

That said, thanks again to you guys for all your help and support with this.

I'll let you know the outcome when the ratchet arrives...it's on the way now...

And if it doesn't work I may just paint it red and use it for display purposes only!! [Smile]

[Smile]

PS. Andrew, I saw the new prices for the spindles! Wow... [Eek!]

[Eek!]

[Frown]

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Andrew Woodcock
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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted April 09, 2015 05:13 PM

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I'm kinda fond of that original design also! [Wink]

[Wink]

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted April 11, 2015 11:35 AM

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With regard to the spindle replacement parts mentioned above Rob, these have rocketed to 238 euros each after checking again.

I ordered mine for just less than 100 euros back in February 2014.

The problem is, if you want the original design with the two ball bearings fitted in each, you really have no other choice than to purchase them from Wittners.

Edwin Van Eck now supplies very decent replicas for a fraction of even the price I paid in 2014, however as the photographs below show, there is a difference.

Edwin designs them as per original spec with a Sintered Bronze Sleeve Bearing as opposed to the uprated later designed Double Ball Bearing type as supplied by Wittners.

See photographs below,

First Wittners:

And then Edwin Van Eck 3D replica:

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Rob Young.
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posted April 18, 2015 03:25 AM

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So the ratchet has arrived and seems to work, but the problem now is that I can't get the snap ring back on to hold everything together!

Here it is;

Problem is it is so small. The gap to stretch the snap ring open is les than 1.5mm and it simply will not go back on using small screwdrivers, etc. I've tried everything.

So I reckon I need some snap ring pliers, but micro ones that will fit this tiny size.

Problem is I've looked all over, including Maplins, but can't seem to find any small enough to do the job.

Any suggestions??

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Paul Browning
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posted April 18, 2015 04:54 AM

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Hi Rob, The snap ring needs to open up to locate the larger ring to fit the groove in the shaft to hold all them bits in place?. Try this mate, get a drill just large enough to open the smaller hole, maybe a 2mm or 2.5 mm, carefully tap the plain end of the drill into the small hole on a flat surface, this will open larger hole maybe enough to get it in position over the slot in the shaft, obviously use the drill has an handle to hold this, once in position remove the drill, this will then snap shut in the groove, perhaps a pair of long nose pliers would be handy here, to hold the ring while you remove the drill, as it may fly off.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted April 18, 2015 05:10 AM

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Rob try Paul's excellent suggestion but If you want me to post you some snap ring pliers small enough to do the job, please just PM me and I could post you some or even pass them over to you today if you like..Then at least you would have a pair if you did more jobs in the future [Smile]

[Smile]

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Rob Young.
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posted April 18, 2015 08:30 AM

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Paul, the problem is that the whole thing fits so snugly together that anything protruding means that you cannot get the darn thing in position...

Although, your drill idea gave me another idea! I twisted the plastic end of a pen top into the 1.5mm gap to open it up, then cut the end off and hey presto! The rear one is back on!!

BUT...the darn front one is a much tougher little devil and even with both us trying we cannot get it to open enough to snap over the shaft...grr...

Andrew, thanks so much for the offer! Too generous! Maybe if you could tell me where to get some micro clip ring pliers as I think it may be handy to have some for the future! [Smile]

[Smile]

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted April 18, 2015 08:47 AM

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Hello again Rob, the smallest decent set are SRP1a Snap On set. These have a closed tip gap of 1/16th of an inch which works out at 1.58mm. These are the smallest I have but they will just about fit the tiny snap ring you are fitting.
Also you can file the sides on any,even a cheap set to get the tips closer together.
There is an engineers merchants in A.U.l. that sells these small type pliers, or at least they did last time I visited them.

I will look up the name of the merchants and post it on here for you if you like. Otherwise just order a set of the ones mentioned above off the net. Snap On tools are top quality and will last you a lifetime in normal use.

http://www.192.com/atoz/business/manchester-m34/engineers-merchants/francis-kirk-socket-screws-ltd/47357b7349c15af143aa67a0efe291437fe75ad9/comp/

This is the merchant I was referring to Rob. Sorry they are classed as in Denton not A.U.L as posted but it is on the border of both. Hope this helps you.

[ April 20, 2015, 04:13 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Rob Young.
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posted April 22, 2015 06:33 AM

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Thanks Andrew, although in a moment of inspiration (or desperation!, maybe) I remembered that we had a pair of small nail scissors in the bathroom with slightly curved, pronged ends.

Perfect!

Snap rings back on and a quick test...well, I'd also swapped the front ratchet support discs to the rear arm, as they were like-new.

Rear take-up working great! [Smile]

[Smile]

Front ratchet...not! [Frown]

[Frown]

Just occasionally, you could here it slipping. So, took it apart again (groan) and gave the worn ratchet support disc a few coats of Hammerite Silk over the last few days, to build back up the worn surface.

Finally got it all back together this morning and all seems well! [Smile]

[Smile]

[Smile]

[Smile]

Hurrah.

For anyone taking these arms apart though, be really careful when reassembling them as they are so fiddly and precise. [Roll Eyes]

[Roll Eyes]

Very pleased that the Beaulieu is finally up and running again, and at a cost of under £40.00, not the end of the world...although I don't want to see another snap ring in a very long time...lol... [Wink]

[Wink]

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted April 22, 2015 07:27 AM

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Nice work Rob and great improvisation may I add as we are all forced to do at times. The end result is all that matters and it appears you are the winner here Rob with such a small amount laid out for what otherwise would cost an arm and a leg at a recognized service centre. Very well done Rob!! [Wink]

[Wink]

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Rob Young.
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posted April 22, 2015 11:26 AM

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Day off today, so after a clean up on the work bench, put the Beaulieu back in position and watched the fateful 600 footer of "Genevieve"!!

Ran beautifully, with perfect take-up tension throughout, smooth rewind and no unusual or worrying mechanical noises or glitches. [Wink]

[Wink]

[Smile]

Success!

[Smile]

I can now reluctantly tell you anything you need to know about the Beaulieu arm assemblies... [Wink]

[Wink]

[Roll Eyes]

[Smile]

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted April 22, 2015 02:54 PM

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I am certain that will be invaluable information for all of us Rob at one point or another. Your results from this work is really encouraging to all of us who like to maintain our machines as far as we can. Once again, very well done Rob. [Wink]

[Wink]

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Cheshire, U.K.
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posted May 04, 2015 05:24 AM

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Ran the first spool of "Raiders of the Lost Ark" on Saturday night...

That was the only reel as the capstan drive belt snapped!! [Frown]

[Frown]

Filled out the Wittners order form this morning...

Thank goodness, in this day and age, people like Wittners are still going. They may be pricey, but invaluable! [Roll Eyes]

[Roll Eyes]

[Smile]

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