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Author Topic: Snow White burned frame - Solutions ?
Miguel Gimenez
Film Handler

Posts: 52
From: Grenoble, France
Registered: Feb 2010


 - posted April 02, 2016 10:29 AM      Profile for Miguel Gimenez   Email Miguel Gimenez   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hello

Recently I have done a sublime nonsense by putting my Derann's Snow White movie into a Chinon SS1200 (which worked normally well), with the result of motor stopping and burning one frame...

I can't forgive me for this stupidity. This is my favorite movie and my favorite scene (magic mirror in the wall...) [Mad] [Frown]

Of course, at side of repairing the Chinon, I am looking for a new and good projector. Thanks to the knowledge and extreme patience and kindness of people in this forum, specially Andrew and Jean-Marc now I know which projector to go for.

Meanwhile, I can't live with the burned frame. So I am looking for a way to solve that.

What can I do to repair it?

I thought in finding this scene from a Derann's print that maybe went bad in other part, and that someone would discard or could supply it, and see if I could replace the burned frame (or the related plane). Don't know if someone has this part. eBay seems pretty useless regarding super 8 films, in my experience.

I don't know if there is other thing to do. Is there?

At side of that, I think I am decided to buy another copy of Derann's Snow White if I can find it.

Which advice do you have to fix the disaster ? The film support seems not to be affected.

Thanks!

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Oliver F. R. Feld
Master Film Handler

Posts: 447
From: Berlin, Germany
Registered: Jan 2010


 - posted April 02, 2016 11:01 AM      Profile for Oliver F. R. Feld     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hello Miguel...

Do You know the german PICCOLO FILM cutdown of "Snow White"?
Maybe (by chance) there is exactly the scene/the frame You need.
It´s not comparable with the outstanding DERANN-quality, but in my opinion PICCOLO FILM did a very good job.

You should cut the burned frame out of You print (if You put it together again with time and care You will never notice the cut) or You should replace a section, not only one frame.

I can send You a video of the PICCOLO FILM start of "Snow White" if You want.
This cutdown comes up very often at eBay.de
It´s the big case, 65 metros edition.

You see the castle, next the Queen saying "Mirror, mirror on the wall ... all"?
Next the mirror answers "You... face", next she answers "Snow White...!" 25 seconds!

Maybe I could help You.

Regards,
Oliver

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Steven J Kirk
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 873
From: Southern England
Registered: Apr 2008


 - posted April 02, 2016 11:37 AM      Profile for Steven J Kirk   Email Steven J Kirk   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Only cut the burned frame out, make a neat tape splice. Use a slender piece of tape that covers two half frames if possible. If you replace the whole shot from another print be aware unless the frame-line, the focus and sound level are the same the effect will be much worse...

--------------------
VistaVision
Motion Picture High-Fidelity

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005


 - posted April 02, 2016 12:07 PM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If it only one frame, then you'll barely miss just one frame, and if it's a really good splice, with great splice tape, it shouldn't anger you too much when you watch it in the future.

But frustrating, to be sure.

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Miguel Gimenez
Film Handler

Posts: 52
From: Grenoble, France
Registered: Feb 2010


 - posted April 02, 2016 12:44 PM      Profile for Miguel Gimenez   Email Miguel Gimenez   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I must rectify.

There are two frames burned, and the film is affected. It is one frame burned completely, next is ok, and next is burned too.

More exactly the scene is when the Queen go up the stairs towards the magic mirror. I guess that this discards the PICCOLO FILM edition, I'm afraid (although maybe it would have not fit, as Steve comments, I don't know).

So, a Derann portion is I think my only hope, and change part or all the sequence.

Or remove and join the rest...But I guess it will be more noticeable.

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Luis Caramelo
Master Film Handler

Posts: 494
From: Funchal
Registered: Feb 2011


 - posted April 02, 2016 02:24 PM      Profile for Luis Caramelo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
hi! Miguel,i know what you feel,i do got also a print of snow white from derann,in my opinion i would stay the print like it ,s
the two frames burned are not notable in the screen,just get attention when you run a print again used na old film to check if the projector it,s o,k,even so these kind of things happend when we less expected,i do got na chinon st-1200.until now i diden,t got a single problema but in the future who knows...

best;
luis caramelo

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted April 02, 2016 05:36 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
All I can suggest here Miguel is to find another Derann print of Snow White and use what you need to make one perfect print and keep the rest, just in case.

On these type of prints, i'd swap the entire 600ft part, for another to avoid too many unnecessary splices.

When you get your next projector, if it's a Beaulieu, I have a 2nd print here of this I may be willing to part with if I know it will remain unspoiled on a top machine and stay in careful hands throughout.

Let's just see where all of this takes you here in the meantime.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Miguel Gimenez
Film Handler

Posts: 52
From: Grenoble, France
Registered: Feb 2010


 - posted April 03, 2016 04:51 AM      Profile for Miguel Gimenez   Email Miguel Gimenez   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Andrew, you are incredible. Thanks for giving hope.

I hope to find a good Beaulieu not too late. I have some french friends and contacts, I'll try to spread the word among them, maybe some of them will have a Beaulieu at home in disuse... I found a rare camera that I wanted (photographic), this way.

[ April 03, 2016, 07:39 AM: Message edited by: Miguel Gimenez ]

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted April 03, 2016 02:17 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Snow White was shown tonight here in the UK for the very first time on British television.

It was broadcasted on Channel 5 which is a commercial channel here, so not quite the same somehow when every 20minutes it cuts to a commercial break showing the Tetley Tea men!

You're certainly in the right part of the world Miguel for finding one of these. There must be plenty still knocking around in France, especially in the district of Romarantin, I'd have thought.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Miguel Gimenez
Film Handler

Posts: 52
From: Grenoble, France
Registered: Feb 2010


 - posted April 03, 2016 02:22 PM      Profile for Miguel Gimenez   Email Miguel Gimenez   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
...and watch out, the commercials could not be the worst! I am not sure there in UK, but nowadays normally when they broadcast a movie they take the same version than is sold in DVD/BD.

The last (several editions by now) digital editions have ruined it really (together with Pinocchio and others), changed colors, lines, scenes, credits, etc

I have a project underway to build faithful (as much as posible) editions (DVD) of these classics taking the source from super 8 (the most reliable and faithful edition by far comparing with any LD, DVD, VHS, BD versions) for colors (color management required), and some scenes from Laserdisc editions (which indeed respected quite correctly the original), but this is another story... Lots of research and reading and viewing, but I am coming closer [Smile]

This is one of the reasons (but not the only one, of course [Smile] ) why I love so much these Super 8 editions.

BTW Andrew, 'for the very first time on British television.' ? What a surprise !

About the Beaulieu: yes, sure will see If I have luck. For the moment I have written to the eBay one in Germany asking details, although sure it is too expensive, and the projector itself does not seem from the later years neither... Tomorrow I'll start contacting friends.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted April 03, 2016 02:43 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
No it's a first gen Stereo model like my own. Still very good though and later ones, especially the Studio models are extremely difficult to find.
Don't be put off by an earlier stereo model if it performs as they should. They have many improvements over the base models and the modifications Beaulieu made ran into hundreds at a steady rate from their first model to their last.

There is a full and thick section of their service manuals devoted just to the huge amount of modifications they made on each series of their models from beginning to end!

It's highly unlikely, you'll ever get one, where all the modifications ever made were applied to your particular machine. Not unless you were extremely lucky in finding one of the very last made!

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted April 03, 2016 04:26 PM      Profile for Tom Photiou     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Miguel, if it is only the one frame you should be able to cut this single frame out and simply place a decent splice to join the film together as suggested here, no need to buy other prints that probably wont match frame sound or focus, and to buy another print is way OTT. If it is only the one frame you should hardly notice a thing. Even 2 or 3 frames damage could be fixed with a decent splice, i do understand its annoying all the same. [Wink]

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted April 04, 2016 03:31 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
I agree with Tom here Miguel if the damage is down to a frame or two.

I thought you had a large damaged section. I personally wouldn't buy another feature just because of an odd splice covering over one or two damaged frames.

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005


 - posted April 04, 2016 11:04 AM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Or Miguel ...

Just sell off this current print that you have, (making note to mention the few burned frames, as most collectors won't sweat a few burned frames in general), and buy a fairly brand new print of "Snow White". This Derann print comes up more often that most and also quite often, at a decent price.

I feel you're pain, I HATE those burned frames.

--------------------
"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted April 04, 2016 11:44 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
What's a burned frame? [Big Grin] [Wink]

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Miguel Gimenez
Film Handler

Posts: 52
From: Grenoble, France
Registered: Feb 2010


 - posted April 04, 2016 01:05 PM      Profile for Miguel Gimenez   Email Miguel Gimenez   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes Osi, I can't live neither with these burned (burnt? [Wink] ) frames, well, at least for a so beloved film/edition like this is.

At side of if finally I repair it by cut & splice or by finding a new scene to replace, I am also going to look for a new copy.

Also, at side of my feelings, as I explained above I use the S8 Derann edition as a kind of 'master' for a reconstruction of a faithfully edition in digital (even telecine maybe), as it is really scandalous the alterations done by Disney in the oficial editions. If you add to this the fact that they were selling off some of the original cells that served to film some of the original movies... go figure. To honor the truth I can't swear if SW is affected yet by this trade, but maybe is a matter of time.

I think I could accept this in other feature, but in this one... [Frown] it's hard.

I have learnt a lesson the hard way, but...I have also learnt so much here in few days, that I have a bittersweet feeling. I hope I can find a good Beaulieu and a new SW print.

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Brian Fretwell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1785
From: London, UK
Registered: Jun 2014


 - posted April 05, 2016 03:54 PM      Profile for Brian Fretwell   Email Brian Fretwell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A splice might make a noticeable jump in teh soundtrack. If the film isn't warped maybe painting the frames black (with something like the Blooping Ink used to hide splices in optical track) would make it less annoying then a white flash on the screen.

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