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Author Topic: The Empire Strikes Back 2X400ft Ken Films
Osi Osgood
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From: #399R K.O.A. Mountian Home, ID. 83647
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 - posted October 31, 2009 05:20 PM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There are some films that really stand out apart from the rest, and back when there was little VHS around, laserdisc a near future and DVD hadn't entered the vocabulary ...

... many Super 8 enthusiasts hungered to see this film be released on Super 8. By late 1980 early 1981, the writing was already on the wall for the future of Super 8 digests; this being brought on by VHS becoming increasingly reasonable in price.

So, to find that Empire Strikes back was coming out on Super 8 sound film was a collectors dream, and come out it did. It could be well said that this was the last hurrah for Ken Films as, (and others can correct me if I'm wrong), this was among Ken Films last releases.

The digest was released as a 2X400ft digest, as well as a 200ft digest; but unlike the STAR WARS 200ft, there was no additional material released in the 200ft to splice onto the 2X400ft. Interestingly, the 200ft Empire digest was released silent, with sound-stripe and an audio cassette of the soundtrack.

The digest was as follows ...

After a quick FOX logo, we then go into some made for the digest credits upon a black/bluish background. We then see that first shot of the Star Destroyer coming towards the screen. It drops probe droids, scattering out amongst the stars.

One lands upon the ice planet HOTH, where intrepid rebel warrior Luke Skywalker immediately spots it, but before he can do anything about it, an ice planet monster kills his Tauntan.

We then cut to Obiwan Kenobi appearing to the now conscious Luke, telling him to go to the Dagobah system, to be instructed by a Jedi Master by name of Yoda. Luke is rescued by Han, who has went in search of him.

The rebels detect the signal of the probe droid and quickly begin preparations for a ground assault. Meanwhile, Darth Vader, aboard his massive ship, knows by the force that Hoth is the system where Luke will be found.

The assault begins, first with Star Destroyers trying to take out fleeing rebel forces, which are defended by an Ion cannon.
The assault continues with the massive ATAT's (all terrain armored transport). This is, in my opinion, one of the truly great sequences, with those little snow-speeders taking on the ATAT's.

After a lengthy battle, Princess Leia just barely escapes with Han Solo aboard the Mellenium Falcon, while Luke heads to Dagobah. With some deft manuevers, Han outclasses the approaching star destroyers and fighters.

Luke, meanwhile encounters the diminuitive Yoda for the first time. "Take you to him I will!" We then cut to Han Solo taking the Millenium Falcon into an asteroid field on a suicide mission, desperate to escape the pursuing Tie Fighters. He succeeds.

End of Part 1

Darth Vader contacts his Dark Lord, (the original version of the Dark Lord), and they agree that perhaps Luke could be turned to the dark side.

"He will join us or die ... master."

Luke now realizes that the little fellow he first met is in fact Yoda and insists that he is ready.

"I'm not afraid."
"You will be ... you, will be."

We cut to Han Solo and company arriving at the Bespin, the planet where an old friend (?) Lando Calrissian awaits him and welcomes him ... before later turning them over the Darth vader.

Meanwhile, Luke continues his training with Yoda. He realizes, thru the force that his friends are in pain and in trouble. he must go to them, but before leaving, Yoda informs us that, though Ben insists that Luke is they're last hope, Yoda states that there is another.

We cut to Luke arriving at Bespin and the city in the clouds.
He is quickly directed to Darth Vader and they're long awaited Lightsabre battle ensues. Luke gets his forearm and hand cut off, but this is not the worst of it.

"He told me enough, he told me you killed him."
"No, Luke ... I am your father."

The revelation is too much for Luke. He chooses to let himself fall into the depth's of the gas mining station, (instead of joining his father.) Fortunately for Luke, Lukes sister, Leia, knows thru the force to pick him up, (though she doesn't know that Luke is her brother). They escape the clutches of Vader and, to end the digest, a now noble Lando and Chewbacca head off to find Han Solo, (who has been taken by Boba Fett, not shown in the digest.

End of part 2.

This digest is a masterful edit and though there are some plot points that one would wish were in here, (this would have made an outstanding 3X400ft) it flows quite nicely and is a rip snorting ride.

Print evaluation ...

Sound

Sound is a good booming mono. One would wish that the mono was a little sharper, but it is more than adequete for the time that this was released. There are no drop-offs in sound.

Color

If your lucky enough to find a mint condition print withy unfaded color, (as this was printed on both Kodak SP as well as the dreaded Eastman), you'll find that the color is very saturated, and is a big improvement on the somewhat drab color of the original STAR WARS 1X400ft from a few years earlier.

Please note: The color does vary, depending on the sequence. There are no "washed out shots nor any that are too dark. I would say that 90 percent of the color is very good. You will note, however, that the last two minutes of part 1, (the asteroid chase) immediately has a overly brownish tint. This begins right after yoda states, "Take you to him I will". You will immediately notice this defect in color. Considering that this was released literally within a year of the feature coming out, one is disappointed with this unnecessary color shift. Thankfully it is the only really noticeable color shift. This two minute sequence, even in perfect mint condition prints, has that same faded quality.

Grain

Grain is a little more than what one would desire, but it is not so bad that you can't live with it. This is where STAR WARS 1X400 (part 1) is much better, having very little grain.

Focus/sharpness

The focus is passable. Nothing is blurry, but not quite what you would desire. However, some shots, (such as the ATAT commander imforming Lord Vader that he came start his landing), are pin sharp. Is is sufficient.

As stated earlier, this is 2X400ft, however, unlike the Universal 8 2X400ft, this one is about 17 or more minutes to each part. Therefore, it is a little too long to fit on a standard 600ft. However, there are some earlier 600ft reels that have a smaller hub, (center) and it may just fit upon that size 600ft.

This is an excellent 2X400ft ... great for guests and well worth plcing in your collection. beware, however, as this digest is defintely subject to fade. Make sure that you asks the appropriate questions concerning the fade of the print. My print is mint, no fade whatsoever, so it is entirely possible to find a good copy.

LONG LIVE SUPER 8!!

[ October 31, 2009, 10:28 PM: Message edited by: Osi Osgood ]

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Thomas Murin, Jr.
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 - posted October 31, 2009 10:28 PM      Profile for Thomas Murin, Jr.   Author's Homepage   Email Thomas Murin, Jr.   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Great review, Osi! Really looking forward to mine (when you find it)! [Wink]

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Osi Osgood
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 - posted October 31, 2009 10:33 PM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm trotting down to my basement tommorow, so I'll word back to you soon. Actually, I should have two prints down there. One is a nice color print (Kodak SP), but the other one is a little pinky, (eastman) but in STEREO. That second one was re-recorded by a collector, some scenes have better stereo than others, but the synch is dead on!

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Thomas Murin, Jr.
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 - posted November 01, 2009 09:55 AM      Profile for Thomas Murin, Jr.   Author's Homepage   Email Thomas Murin, Jr.   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Clearly I would prefer the one with better color. The stereo one would do me no good as my projector is mono.

Tom

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My crummy Deviant Art account. Read my poetic tribute to the internet comic strip Ozy & Millie and view my crappy attempts at art.

http://cougartiger.deviantart.com/

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Douglas Meltzer
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 - posted November 01, 2009 10:15 AM      Profile for Douglas Meltzer   Email Douglas Meltzer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Osi,

Another great review!

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Doug

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Jean-Marc Toussaint
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 - posted November 01, 2009 10:30 AM      Profile for Jean-Marc Toussaint   Author's Homepage   Email Jean-Marc Toussaint   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Good review, Osi, you just forgot to mention that the "I am your father" line is NOT in the original Ken soundtrack. That and Han Solo's fate were purposedly and contractually taken off the digest storyline. I re-included the sentence when I rerecorded the soundtrack using the laserdisc.

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Osi Osgood
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 - posted November 01, 2009 12:14 PM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
ThanX 4 the feedback folks!

Great images there Doug! I'm still mystified that Ken films didn't bother to actually record the 200ft digests track on the actual film, when they already had the magnetic track on the film. Perhaps I'm bonkers, but wouldn't it cost much more to had additional extra large boxes and the cassette tape of the audio as well, than record it right onto the film. Did Ken films lose they're ability to record soundtracks by that time and the 200ft was more of a after thought? Which came out first? The 200ft or the 400ft digests?

Also, was the audio cassette in stereo or mono?

Does anybody have an explanation as to why this was so?

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Jean-Marc Toussaint
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 - posted November 01, 2009 03:41 PM      Profile for Jean-Marc Toussaint   Author's Homepage   Email Jean-Marc Toussaint   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Osi, I think you asked that question already... [Big Grin]
There's sound on the 200ft track. And the tape is in mono. I guess they wanted to make a quick buck in selling the short subject, omitting to tell that it was impossible to sync a 18 fps silent projector to a track running at 24fps.

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Osi Osgood
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 - posted November 01, 2009 05:02 PM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Jean Marc ...

How is the color on the 200ft? Has it held up well AND, if you please, what film stock is it?

ThanX!

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Jean-Marc Toussaint
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 - posted November 02, 2009 01:11 AM      Profile for Jean-Marc Toussaint   Author's Homepage   Email Jean-Marc Toussaint   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Eastman / shifting towards brownish

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Rob Young.
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 - posted November 02, 2009 08:19 AM      Profile for Rob Young.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
One of my favourite 8mm films of all time!

Osi, check out my box signed by cast members;

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Now all I need do is have it signed by Mark Hamill, Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher to complete it...should be easy [Roll Eyes]

As discussed proviously on the forum, Empire was originally destined to be a 3x400ft version, but by the time the second extract was due out super 8 was in decline, Ken lost their nerve, and condensed the rest into just one more 400ft release. Shame [Frown] .

Also (Star Wars Anorak info here!!) but the edit on Pt.1 varies ever, ever so slightly from one version to another. For example on some versions, after Luke is attacked by the Wampa, there is a quick fade out before the next shot with Luke lying in the snow...on other versions just a cut. Also, some versions have the Millenium Falcon entering the "cave" at the very end, with the lines, "I hope you know what you're doing", "Me too...", whereas some versions are missing this.

Also, some non-sync dialogue on Pt.2 is different to the theatrical release;

approaching cloud city, the pilot of the escort ship announces, "any agressive move will not be tolerated". On the theatrical versions he says, "you will not deviate from your present course".

As Luke hangs from cloud city and contacts Leia using the force, Leia announces, "we have to back". Lando, "but what about Vader?". Leia, "we HAVE to go back!". In the theatrical she says, "I know where Luke is".

Escaping cloud city as Tie-Fighters close in, Leia tells Lando on the intercom, "Lando, hurry up...we've got company...". On the theatrical "we've got company" is cut.

These aren't changes to the 1997 re-release either, but differences dating right back to the 1980 theatrical version. I know Lucas likes to "tweak" different releases (even differences between original release prints) but I've never heard these line differences anywhere but on the super 8 version.

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Osi Osgood
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 - posted November 02, 2009 08:26 AM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Rob! That box is totally awesome! A true collectors item!
Magnificent!

ThanX 4 your warm comments and sentiments and sharing. Its this love we have for celluloid and all that's printed on it. To be able to escape the confines of our normal lives and dwell in a galaxy far, far away ...

... even if it was a long time ago!

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Rob Young.
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 - posted November 02, 2009 08:36 AM      Profile for Rob Young.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Osi, escapism is certainly what it's all about [Smile] .

Empire still seems as exciting and fresh as when I watched it all those years ago as a 10 year old kid...although that does seem like a galaxy far, far away now [Big Grin] .

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Osi Osgood
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 - posted November 02, 2009 04:43 PM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Rob ...

Could the difference in dialogue be from an already prepared for future TV use print? Those are literally prepared from when the film first comes out. It's just a thought.

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Rob Young.
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 - posted November 03, 2009 02:59 AM      Profile for Rob Young.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It's does seem to possibly be from a very early version of Empire, Osi. We all know how Lucas likes to constantly alter small details (for example in "A New Hope" it's either, "good shooting Wedge..." or, "good shooting Biggs..." depending which print you are watching!)

Certainly by the time Empire reached the UK in 1980, the dialogue was altered.

Raises a question I've often wondered about; since the 8mm versions are pan & scan (and very well done) do they originate from a 16mm pan & scan full length version? If so, would Ken use a 16mm negative or print to produce the 8mm version? Anyone know how they were edited and produced?

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Marshall Crist
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 - posted November 03, 2009 05:07 AM      Profile for Marshall Crist   Email Marshall Crist   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It seems to me there was some stuff in Ken's DRESSED TO KILL that was different than or not in the theatrical version. Pretty sure it was because the abridgment was created before the final cut of the feature was locked in.

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Osi Osgood
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 - posted November 03, 2009 12:59 PM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
We also get the benefit of the original "Dark Lord" in this 2X400ft version, as well as the untouched original color of the original film, (well, as long as you still have a mint condition color print.

Now, I'm almost tempted to get the 200ft version, just for the sake of it.

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James N. Savage 3
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 - posted November 03, 2009 02:27 PM      Profile for James N. Savage 3   Email James N. Savage 3   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks for the review Osi (Wow! I cant believe this digest was never reviewed before now!)

My comments-

I've always thought this to be an excellent 2 x 400 foot digest of the feature, even if not perfect. It actually flows better (to me) than the 2 x 400 digest of Star Wars. My colors on reel #1 are good, but on reel #2 are excellent!

The sound on reel #1 was not too good, so I re-recorded it into stereo, which came out fantastic (very hard though, with all the small edits). I left the sound alone on reel #2, since it was already very good mono. I just copied the sound to the balance track to keep it more consistent to reel #1.

When the first 400 foot part of Empire was released, I think super 8 was still doing pretty well. By the time that the second 400 foot was released (about a year or so later), things were starting to change, as more and more households were owning video machines.

An interesting story-
Back in the 70's and 80's, I showed scary super 8 movies at the halloween carnival at my old elementary school. In 1985, I brought the 2 part "Empire" digest, just for the heck of it. When word got out that "Empire" was showing in the school library, the line was down the hallway! I had to show it continuously, and it became the "event" of the carnival that year! Note: even though video was rampant by then, "Empire" had not been released, and super-8 was the ONLY way it could be watched at that time [Wink] .

Fun memories!!

James.

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Osi Osgood
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 - posted November 03, 2009 04:50 PM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I wonder how good the stereo is on yours? I bought an Empire in stereo from some fellow in the UK, but the stereo mix didn't even sound like stereo. Nore like a botched job or someone just recorded the main stripe to the balance stripe.

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James N. Savage 3
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 - posted November 03, 2009 07:38 PM      Profile for James N. Savage 3   Email James N. Savage 3   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Osi-

The stereo separation was very good on my re-record.

My source was from the VHS re-release that came out around 2000 (I think). The sound is very good on that, and the sound stripes on the super 8 print were very good.

The only reason I did'nt re-record the second 400 footer, was, number one, the sound was excellent mono, and, number two, the first reel was so challenging and time consuming that I just couldn't devote the time needed for the project.

Maybe I'll put it on my "list of things to do after I retire" list [Wink] .

James.

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John Skujins
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 - posted November 04, 2009 09:42 AM      Profile for John Skujins   Email John Skujins   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
.

[ March 18, 2012, 12:27 PM: Message edited by: John Skujins ]

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Osi Osgood
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From: #399R K.O.A. Mountian Home, ID. 83647
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 - posted November 04, 2009 10:43 AM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Being that it was mentioned earlier, I wonder if they ever did a 3X400ft edit, but just never sent it out for printing? If anyone knows anybody who worked for Ken Films at the time, it would be an interesting question. It would make sense that they would make at least one test printing, but we don't live in a perfect world.

Still, I'm happy to have a 2X400ft of this, equally happy to have a great color copy of this.

I'm still surprised at that last two minutes of part 1 being faded. One wonders why those who put together the digest wouldn't catch that or, perhaps, having finished it, thought to themselves, "Hell, this is the last release, lets just get it out there and hope for the best. Why bother to get better neg material?

It's not the only place where there is a strange shift in color actually. Right before this scene, you have Luke first encountering Yoda. Yoda gets down, we cut to Luke. When we cut back, the color is suddenly better than ever before. Perhaps it's this magnificent color of this short piece, that brings out even more annoyance with the poor color of the asteroid chase.

Still, though my part 1 (on Kodak SP) appears to have the slightest shift in color, it must be about as good as it's going to get. I have noted that some space shots are nearly perfect blacks, but perhaps it never truly have spot on completely black, blacks? Could someone else who has a mint condition color copy comment on this?

For instance, that first shot of the star destoyer sending out probe droids, has the slightest browning to the blacks. Later in reel one, there are space shots that do have literally spot on blacks. This leads me to believe that the color of the original negative, put together piecemeal, must have either been from assorted sources OR just have a variety of color saturation.
You really can't say color fade, as this digest came out within the year that the original film was released, so there really wasn't any time for the original negative to show any fade.

At least, I have always assumed that. This looks like it is approaching a John Whittle question. Can fade make itself known within even a year from processing the original film negative?

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Marshall Crist
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 - posted November 04, 2009 12:05 PM      Profile for Marshall Crist   Email Marshall Crist   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I would love to know more about Ken Films in general. Is there such a thread here? Castle seems pretty well chronicled, but all I know about Ken is they had a PO box in NJ.

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John Skujins
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 - posted November 07, 2009 08:22 PM      Profile for John Skujins   Email John Skujins   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Correction: My Volume 2 does not have the line, "I am your father" as I previously said it did. I thought I remembered that but I was wrong. I just screened my ESB digests 1 & 2 and noticed that interesting omission.

By the way my Volume 1 is pinkish but still has some color, and my Volume 2 has great color.

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Wade Epler
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 - posted January 08, 2010 01:41 PM      Profile for Wade Epler   Email Wade Epler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I haven't been to this forum in a while-I can't believe I didn't comment on this one!

This was the very first film I ordered from Derann, and I was so satisfied with it that they now get all of my film business. Sadly, I was such a neophyte at rewinding with my Bolex sound projector, I looped the film under the helper spindle on the lamphouse, rather than simply letting it drape over that pulley. This resulted in my scratching reel 1 or ESB (luckily only a very minor scratch at the beginning) but left a terrible scratch on reel 2 of Jaws. But that was a lesson learned. A few weeks later I was at a friend's house, and as he was about to make the same mistake on his new Chinon, I literally dove across that projector to protect his home movies from a nasty scratching!

My copy has the I am your father line cut, as well as the loss of Luke's arm. A real shame, but the digest is so well cut I can't complain. I particularly like how they edited out the whole snow monster scene at the beginning- which really helped in picking up the pace. As far as print condition, mine has great color throughout, and a fine mono soundtrack, although the Obi Wan/ Yoda dialogue towards the end of reel 1 sounds a bit like there is dirt on the soundtrack for a few seconds. Prints of these tend typically be in better shape than the ubiquitous 400' Ken films Star Wars print that I can never seem to find with decent color, not that the editing on that one is very good.

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