8mm Forum


  
my profile | my password | search | faq | register | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» 8mm Forum   » 16mm Forum   » A Star Wars Example of Supply and Demand? (Page 1)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!  
This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2 
 
Author Topic: A Star Wars Example of Supply and Demand?
Melvin England
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 707
From: Hull, East Yorkshire, UK
Registered: Feb 2016


 - posted September 28, 2017 12:36 PM      Profile for Melvin England     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have been curious to observe recently on Ebay UK the varying prices that a full length 'scope print of Star Wars can fetch in various formats.

A 35mm 'scope with Dolby sound recently fetched £607

However,

A 16mm 'scope,Mylar print has just sold for £1312

At first, one would assume that the superior 35mm copy would have been far more expensive than the 16mm. Then take into consideration many people have 16mm as opposed to 35mm (does anyone have a figure?)and one can possibly see the justification of the higher price on the smaller format.Let's not even talk Super 8 (for once).
Any comments?

--------------------
"My name is for my friends!"

 |  IP: Logged

Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted September 28, 2017 01:55 PM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
One more: November, 2015

Star Wars: 16mm, more than a little faded, got the dollar equivalent a tad over £2800. (A friend of mine was on the income end of this auction, and he was pleasantly surprised!)

-sometimes it's OK if it makes no sense!

(There may be no sense to be made!)

--------------------
All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

 |  IP: Logged

Melvin England
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 707
From: Hull, East Yorkshire, UK
Registered: Feb 2016


 - posted September 28, 2017 02:41 PM      Profile for Melvin England     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Good on him,Steve.

If people are prepared to pay that sort of money then so be it. It is when the starting price on Ebay is ridiculously high that really can irritate.

--------------------
"My name is for my friends!"

 |  IP: Logged

Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted September 28, 2017 02:54 PM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If I remember right the starting bid on this was $19.99: you get a couple of toppings or delivery you can easily spend that on a pizza!

It's so natural to take a whole bunch of sales and try to fit a trend to them, but there's this delightful randomness that just defies all meaning.

More than once I've seen something I liked and put up the minimum bid ("It'll NEVER go for this little."), and I win the thing. The sharks just weren't off the beach that day, but it may not stop them next week.

It pays to remember when the guy that's so crazed for a title he's willing to dig into his kid's college fund actually gets the thing, he's out of the picture. The following week he's home enjoying his print and he doesn't care if another just like it is available today.

-on the other had, when at least TWO collectors like this collide, it's the perfect storm. (for the seller...not so much their college age kids.)

For myself, I've taken the personal pledge not to bid on optical "Grizzly Adams" until Osi gets his!

--------------------
All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

 |  IP: Logged

Melvin England
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 707
From: Hull, East Yorkshire, UK
Registered: Feb 2016


 - posted September 28, 2017 05:57 PM      Profile for Melvin England     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve - Commenting on your third paragraph, I experienced this recently. I put a bid on a classic Cagney film that I didn't think I had a hope in hell of grabbing at around £70 but hey presto! I won! I thought it would go for double!
Then today, I was chasing another one which was standing at around £50. I bid pretty much the same....another classic film.....Did I win this time? No chance. £155

Just shows there is no significant pattern to bidding nowadays.

As far as "grizzly" goes, it is not necessarily on my "wanted" list and if it surfaced on Ebay UK, it would be a quick private mail to Osi to let him know. I,like yourself, would steer clear of this one as we know just how much Osi wants it. However, if it came up at Blackpool I would get it, watch it, then another quick PM to Osi...!

--------------------
"My name is for my friends!"

 |  IP: Logged

Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted September 28, 2017 10:02 PM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've seen "Grizzly" prints a couple of times and E-mailed Osi. At least once he answered "Thanks, but I've already had that print!".

When it comes to film auctions in general: it's a unique moment in time. What's available, how it's being offered, who wants it and why and who among the who is even paying attention at the moment. Maybe the most rabid collector after a given title had to send all his film money to a roofer or a mechanic or a plumber and he's out of contention for now.

-just too many variables to ever figure out what might happen.

--------------------
All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

 |  IP: Logged

Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted September 29, 2017 06:38 AM      Profile for Tom Photiou     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
supply & demand!!
I think this sale was nuts as the colour was red! What is the point of watching a red film, or was this simply a stars wars collector just wanting a cinema copy of the untouched 1977 version i wonder. I will never understand a film collector or movie fan being content watching a red image. It certainly doesn't work for us im afraid. I get annoyed when one of our print starts to show the early signs of fade. [Wink]

 |  IP: Logged

Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted September 29, 2017 08:09 AM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It was nuts, but it was fun to watch!

-kept things pretty lively here for a couple of days:

Star Wars on 16mm

There's this thing called "patina" which antique collectors appreciate. It's rust, wear, color fading: they say it gives a piece character. Maybe if you consider a reel of film "vintage memorabilia", you actually want red fading!

-it's not like they're ever going to watch the thing.

--------------------
All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

 |  IP: Logged

Graham Ritchie
Film God

Posts: 4001
From: New Zealand
Registered: Feb 2006


 - posted September 29, 2017 08:56 PM      Profile for Graham Ritchie   Email Graham Ritchie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Interesting comments above, and Tom you are absolutely right...I have a 16mm Scope print of "Star Wars", had it for about 20 years. The last time I watched it, the film had turned red. I wont sell the film, but will scrap it instead "I have been talking about that for a while"...time to act and keep the reels for something else. Although its not worth projecting anymore, it really needs to be taken out of circulation for good. I will also be looking at other films soon, any that have gone totally red will meet a similar fate.

 |  IP: Logged

Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted September 30, 2017 05:20 AM      Profile for Tom Photiou     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Good shout there Graham, fully agree, you are also saving someone from wasting there cash as there are plenty of good copies around on both 8 and 16mm and i am sure also 35. [Wink]

[ October 11, 2019, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: Tom Photiou ]

 |  IP: Logged

Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted September 30, 2017 05:45 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
If prints of my own had turned absolute red, and I was looking to offload, then I don't think I'd scrap them so long as they are myler prints, but I would simply look to pass them on to another film lover for the price of the reels only.

Many still get pleasure from viewing red prints and therefore who am I to decide they are beyond their serviceable life?

Obviously for prints like these on acetate, then as they would also be prone to VS as time moves along now, therefore then, I'd scrap this type and keep the reels for my own collection.

At the end of the day, if people can enjoy monochrome prints, made up only of shades of black, grey and white and therefore looking nothing like a realistic recreation of real life through a lens,..
Then why can't shades of red, pink and white be tolerated to bring about a similar mindset and adoration?

Again, it's not for myself to decide they never could so far as what is considered acceptable viewing material so long as the said film is well cared for and therefore fit for purpose.

Personally, I'd be more inclined to remove heavily scratched and damaged prints from circulation, even on LPP, than I ever would decent prints that look pristine aside from the fade to them.

These are the type that are truly ruined for good.

[ September 30, 2017, 09:25 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

 |  IP: Logged

Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5895
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted September 30, 2017 11:00 AM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A red print can be made more tolerable to watch by projecting through a blue filter.
I would never scrap any print unless it had bad v.s.

--------------------
Maurice

 |  IP: Logged

Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1633
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted September 30, 2017 04:30 PM      Profile for Rob Young.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I agree with Graham here.

Just scrap a faded or damaged print.

So called collectors will abolish you for saying so, but try to sell or even give away such stuff and suddenly most are amazingly quiet...

Bin it...it was designed and built for a different era if it has faded...

I sent a slightly faded, well run 16mm print abroad at my own loss recently just because I couldn't face destroying it and thought it was possibly still enjoyable?

I really do hope that the new owner enjoys it (genuine, no disrespect, and TOTALLY my own choice, and really do hope that it is decent entertainment) but would I bother again, hell no...bin.

 |  IP: Logged

Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted September 30, 2017 05:02 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
As said Rob, everones tolerance levels of acceptable are completely different.

That is why for me, it is simply a case of whether a print is physically up to running and if enough of the image still exists without faces being disfigured etc by the inclusion of horrible green tram lines and the likes.

If the film passes clear on both of the above,i would gladly allow a new owner deem it fit for purpose.

Once they're gone, they're gone forever.

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

 |  IP: Logged

Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1633
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted October 01, 2017 07:57 AM      Profile for Rob Young.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I really do appreciate what you are saying, Andrew, but there are gleaming new digital versions of most movies out there, also made by people that really do care about quality.

I tried to almost give away several 16mm prints at a convention once, and to be honest all I saw was a dealer buying them up at my honest and cheap prices, then re-selling them at ridiculous prices.

Of course, said person passed on the pink prints, as did everyone else.

It did damage my faith in the film collecting business, for sure.

That said, we all know the really great and trustworthy dealers out there.

 |  IP: Logged

Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted October 01, 2017 09:54 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Put into that context Rob, under those same circumstances, I'd rather had scrapped the lot. [Mad]

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

 |  IP: Logged

Robert Tucker
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 688
From: Essex, UK
Registered: May 2005


 - posted October 01, 2017 11:34 AM      Profile for Robert Tucker     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
All depends on the subject matter and if it ever got printed again on 16mm or 35mm.

You'll find that most 35mm prints will not get a second print run depending on title. This goes the same with 16mm as well.

Hence the reason why some people choose to keep the print. As you'll never find another one of this title in your life time.

To put this in the mix you also have first aired TV prints that are very collectible even being red. Let's face it you have plenty of red Eastman prints out there. But it all boils down to the subject matter some times and title if they rarely come up often in any format.

All comes down to personal taste i guess.

 |  IP: Logged

Gilbert Lambert
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 184
From: Ostende, Belgium
Registered: May 2016


 - posted October 01, 2017 11:48 AM      Profile for Gilbert Lambert   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
We all know a new print can be made if you know the way. Why bid and gamble that amount , new one can be made for lesser.

 |  IP: Logged

Alan Rik
Film God

Posts: 2211
From: New York City, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted October 01, 2017 02:02 PM      Profile for Alan Rik   Email Alan Rik   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A new print can be made but the cost really is very, very high.
I have seen the prices for raw stock, the work involved, it is not a cheap proposition. And of course you have to find the master material.
For me I wouldn't want a print that was red/pink, soft focus, bad sound, etc. I had those prints and I tried watching them but I couldn't take it. My mind would wander off and I would eventually just turn off the machine. Those are deal breakers for me. I would rather watch the movie on my laptop! I would never trash a print but I would either sell it or give it away. Once they are gone, they are gone as was said before.
If i had the space I would love to get into 35mm. I saw a NEW print of "Enter the Dragon" Scope, the whole works, the new updated version with the additional footage with Bruce talking with the head monk...it sold for $2000! That to me is a bargain. Wish I would of seen it. I would of bought it on the spot and waited till I found a 35mm projector! [Smile]
And Star Wars on 35mm? Forget it. That would be incredible.
T2-$1500. And you know the quality of it. That would be $300 cheaper than the Super 8 print. http://www.ebay.com/itm/P0182-TERMINATOR-2-JUDGMENT-DAY-1991-35mm-motion-picture-film-print-FEATURE-/263197644761?hash=item3d47cd57d9%3Ag%3Ac9gAAOSwLmZZtJDs&nma=true&si=pOQyzgOvLzM vL%252Ff6yA2RlnkAqlw%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 |  IP: Logged

Graham Ritchie
Film God

Posts: 4001
From: New Zealand
Registered: Feb 2006


 - posted October 01, 2017 02:51 PM      Profile for Graham Ritchie   Email Graham Ritchie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
My feelings exactly Rob I am not prepared to give them away for someone further down the line to make a killing money wise over.

Although I am not saying that all film collectors are crooks, there are certainly some out there, and I have come across them. I am sure we all have, that would take advantage of some poor sucker selling this badly faded rubbish.

As Andrew says above..."Once they're gone, they're gone forever".
and that's exactly what I want.

Alan you could look at a portable 35mm, I saw one that a fellow forum member here has and its a stunner. With arms that attach for large reels, reverse scanning reader, Xenon lamp etc etc. It could sit on a kitchen table..a strong one.. [Smile] ..a real beauty.

The next time I see him in a few weeks, I will ask if he can put some photos of it up for you [Cool]

 |  IP: Logged

Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted October 01, 2017 03:04 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
I did say those words Graham, but not quite in the same context as you appear to be meaning it here.

From my own perspective, all i was meaning, that as a result of the above statement, all the more reason as to why to think long and hard about scrapping any.

What we know now of course, is that from even the grubbiest and oldest of film images, archivists of film can now clean up these images frame by frame to look like new for digital restoration work.

So for rare 16mm /35mm original release footage or even some amateur 8mm footage, these faded scratched and worn out images can often unlock vital pieces of historical value for both our earliest and rarest commercial films as well as insights to places and people of the day throughout history and throughout our world.

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

 |  IP: Logged

David Hardy
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 955
From: Johnshaven Village , Montrose, Scotland
Registered: Jan 2015


 - posted December 04, 2017 09:52 AM      Profile for David Hardy     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have binned more 16mm and Super 8mm faded to red prints recently with more to go. I tried them with a filter but was not convinced to keep them any longer as this merely flattened the already soft definition even more.

Most of them were musicals, westerns and war movies.

I saw no reason to pass them on just for some others to sell on at a huge overpriced profit.

They were not even worth saving for posterity because most of them were 8mm cutdowns from your average Hollywood fodder.

The titles are readily available in much superior picture quality on DVD/Blu-Ray discs

The negs are still safely stored away for future use anyway so these inferior Super 8mm prints are no loss to future generations.

However I may just sell off my remaining faded prints on at hugely inflated prices on ebay to fund my forthcoming conversion to the 16mm gauge.

[Big Grin]

--------------------
" My equipment's more important than your rats. "

 |  IP: Logged

Dave Groves
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 508
From: Southend on Sea, Essex, UK
Registered: Feb 2015


 - posted December 05, 2017 02:31 PM      Profile for Dave Groves   Email Dave Groves   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
In 1979 I purchased a used print of the Halas & Bachelor cartoon 'The Candlemaker'. The colour was lovely and ran it many times. Now my favourite cartoon is red with not a hint of colour. I ran it in my Christmas show last night and said to the audience 'See if you can find something wrong with this cartoon'. From an audience of 35, three mentioned the colour, and when told they were correct, they said they thought it was nice that way!!! Personally I won't show faded prints but where would I find a nice colour copy now. And, if I did, my days of buying prints are pretty much at an end. We all get there eventually. Watching b/w is seeing what exists. Watching faded film, my mind keeps telling me I'm not seeing what I should. I feel cheated, even watching my degraded cartoon is disappointing compared with what it used to be.

--------------------
Dave

 |  IP: Logged

Rodney Bourke
Film Handler

Posts: 86
From: Australia
Registered: Jun 2009


 - posted October 03, 2019 07:45 AM      Profile for Rodney Bourke     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
16mm STAR WARS in Fuji Colour and Scope on ebay

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/16mm-Feature-Film-STAR-WARS-1977-Uncut-Theatrical-Scope-GORGEOUS-PRINT/333344844135?hash=item4d9ce6a967:g:psgAAOSwSxtdkP7n&frcectupt=true

 |  IP: Logged

Can Sanalan
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 130
From: London, United Kingdom
Registered: Jul 2017


 - posted October 07, 2019 03:35 AM      Profile for Can Sanalan     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
WOW!!
That final price!!!! [Eek!]

 |  IP: Logged



All times are Central
This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2 
 
   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic    next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:

Visit www.film-tech.com for free equipment manual downloads. Copyright 2003-2019 Film-Tech Cinema Systems LLC

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.3.1.2