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Author Topic: One born every minute.... apparently
Sam James
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 114
From: London
Registered: Oct 2005


 - posted December 06, 2013 02:37 PM      Profile for Sam James   Email Sam James   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A "friend" of mine recently sold an item through this forum to another person who'd used the phrase "being a forum member, would you take..." the implication being, to my "friend", that membership of this forum was proof of a shared fascination that went beyond mere financial profit and that it entitled one to ask for a discount. In other words, mates rates. Imagine my "friend's" surprise when he/she received an email unintentionally forwarded to him/her indicating that the item had been resold within a day of arrival at the fellow hobby lover's address.
My "friend" is very naive, don't you think?

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Dominique De Bast
Film God

Posts: 4486
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Jun 2013


 - posted December 06, 2013 03:25 PM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If someone came to this forum with the only purpose to buy for cheap or to receive free (as it happens from time to time) from real cine enthousiasts, don't hesitate one second to report his name to warn us.

--------------------
Dominique

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David C. Lucidi
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 127
From: Glenolden, PA, USA
Registered: Nov 2013


 - posted December 06, 2013 06:06 PM      Profile for David C. Lucidi   Email David C. Lucidi   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I may be a newbie to the forums (due to a lack of time in my life beforehand) but I have been involved in film since I was 6-7 years old (39 now). And my father (who got me into it) was involved since HE was a teen.

It's one thing to make offers lower than asking, and 'using the forum angle' to justify a lower price. I personally think that is wrong (if ONLY using the forum to get cheaper pricing, and not contributing to the forum itself in some way).

But to do what was done here (for profit only resale) makes me upset. I agree with Dominique -- don't hesitate to let the forum collective know.

In all my years (and watching my dad as well) buy/sell/trade, profit may have been a motive to sell, BUT it was always "respect for fellow collectors" that was the bigger motivation (at least for me/my dad). And I can never recall dealing with someone being so 'low' as to trick a collector into a lower price when their sole reason for buying was immediately re-sell at a higher price. Sad, really [Frown]

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5895
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted December 07, 2013 02:09 AM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I would be interesting to know if Sam's "friend" actually accepted an offer for the film, or did he sell it for his asking price?

--------------------
Maurice

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Sam James
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 114
From: London
Registered: Oct 2005


 - posted December 07, 2013 08:09 AM      Profile for Sam James   Email Sam James   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Maurice,
I didn't have an asking price (oops what a give away!). I accepted an offer on the grounds of "this is what it would go for on ebay and so after commission you'd get..." but was swayed by the "we're all in this together so would you accept..." argument. It just so happened that the buyer accidentally sent me notification of sale and dispatch of the very item I'd sent him 3 days before. I'm sure it's a storm in a teacup and, of course, business is business but I felt the need to highlight something that concerned me. Had I gone to ebay I might not have got what I did and I would have had to pay commission, but it's the principle that counts.
Dominique and David,
Thank you for your comments. I don't want anyone to be ostracized so I'm not going to name names. Hopefully they'll see this post and modify their actions. At the very least they'll be more careful about emails!
Thanks again
Sam

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Dominique De Bast
Film God

Posts: 4486
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Jun 2013


 - posted December 07, 2013 09:30 AM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It is not about ostricizing someone (this is a moderators decision), it is about preserving the good relationship on this forum between people sharing the same hobby. There is no room for those wanting to abuse real collectors.

--------------------
Dominique

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5895
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted December 07, 2013 11:47 AM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sam
May I ask if you were happy with accepting the offer?

--------------------
Maurice

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Bill Brandenstein
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1632
From: California
Registered: Aug 2007


 - posted December 07, 2013 11:56 AM      Profile for Bill Brandenstein   Email Bill Brandenstein   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Some of the kindness in this group is second to none, considering some of the deals some of you've made with me, plus a few very special titles I now have. I've kept them ALL even though bought below eBay prices.

Anyone who does otherwise is deceitful and merely taking advantage of our kindness - and deserves to be "outed."

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Sam James
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 114
From: London
Registered: Oct 2005


 - posted December 07, 2013 12:51 PM      Profile for Sam James   Email Sam James   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Maurice,
I was happy to accept the offer and am still happy to have sold the item. My discomforture came with the revelation that the "forum membership" card had been played on me when in fact the purchaser had no intention of keeping the item. That act in itself is unlikely to change the course of history, but it irked me at the time. Lesson learnt.
Sam

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Larry Arpin
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 953
From: Sunland, CA, USA
Registered: Dec 2006


 - posted December 07, 2013 01:01 PM      Profile for Larry Arpin   Author's Homepage   Email Larry Arpin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Not trying to defend someone but are you sure it wasn't something where he already had an inferior copy and yours was better and he sold the inferior copy. Because I've done this on a few occasions.

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1633
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted December 07, 2013 01:18 PM      Profile for Rob Young.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mate's Rates. Never do that. Big mistake, because real mates only pay what something is worth.

Sad, isn't it; I've sold film at conventions for far less than I think I could get on eBay, on the hope that a keen collector would get enjoyment from them...then watch as a dealer snapped them up...soon to appear on their lists soon at twice the price no doubt.

Sad.

I love selling on my prints to fellow collectors who will enjoy them as much as I have.

On a plus note! [Smile] There are some really decent film collectors / dealers out there too.

One dealer springs to mind; many years back I approached him to sell a few feature films. He took a few and sold them on no problem, but I clearly remember our telephone conversation where he advised me not to sell him my Disney's as he thought I could get more at auction.

He was dead right.

Smashing bloke...so they're not all bad 'uns!

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011


 - posted December 07, 2013 01:28 PM      Profile for Janice Glesser   Email Janice Glesser   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I know what your are feeling Sam. This has happened to me a couple of times and it's hard to shake the feeling of being taken advantage. It just doesn't sit right. As Bill said...the generosity of many of the members here is tremendous. In the last couple of years I have been the recipient of such kindness multiple times....and I in turn have tried to reciprocate as best I can. However, there are always going to be people out there that look at this site in monetary terms only. They are often hard to identify ... but I don't think we want to become the "Catfish" police... I know I don't. This is the internet and this type of behavior is unfortunate....but to be expected. We just need be on guard a bit more. A person's true motives are eventually revealed.

I'd rather spend my energy on pointing out and thanking those that go out of their way to help us "sincere" new-comers and in turn sustain this hobby.

--------------------
Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Michael O'Regan
Film God

Posts: 3085
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted December 07, 2013 01:49 PM      Profile for Michael O'Regan   Email Michael O'Regan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
... are you sure it wasn't something where he already had an inferior copy and yours was better and he sold the inferior copy. Because I've done this on a few occasions.
Good point.

My own feeling is a mountain is being made out of a molehill. Isn't it quite possible that the buyer genuinely is hard-up for cash and needed to get the print as cheaply as possible?? So, what's wrong with that?

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5895
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted December 07, 2013 01:56 PM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
I was happy to accept the offer and am still happy to have sold the item
Sam is happy. Perhaps that is all there is to say now.

--------------------
Maurice

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Sam James
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 114
From: London
Registered: Oct 2005


 - posted December 07, 2013 02:09 PM      Profile for Sam James   Email Sam James   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
At the risk of sounding pompous, being satisfied with the outcome of an event does not negate one's right to feel dissatisfied at the means by which that outcome was achieved. That would lead to a state of moral torpor, which is unacceptable.
Blimey that does sound pompous!
Put simply by someone much cleverer than I am, the end does not justify the means.

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David C. Lucidi
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 127
From: Glenolden, PA, USA
Registered: Nov 2013


 - posted December 07, 2013 05:27 PM      Profile for David C. Lucidi   Email David C. Lucidi   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Some thoughts:

1.) Yes, a buyer on here has any right to re-sell a film when he wants, for how much he wants.
2.) Yes, a buyer on here doesn't have to explain his actions (i.e., he made be hard up for cash, etc.).

However....I think the point Sam is making, and that some here are missing, is the 'abuse' of the forum membership to negotiate a cheaper price. Again as I said in my post, if a person buying the film simply joins the forum, uses it as a means of buying films cheap (to then re-sell at a higher price), and *at the same time*, contributes NOTHING to the forum (thereby, in my humble opinion, abusing the forum) then I feel that is wrong. Maybe *I* am wrong for feeling that way, but I think if you want to play the "buy low, sell high" game, go look on Ebay, Craigslist, or search Google.

In any hobby there are forums consisting of enthusiasts that will bend over backwards to help other members. While new to this forum, I am not to film by any means and would gladly help out someone if I could. In the past I was also heavily involved in auto racing/restoration, and having enough parts to fill 1000 sq ft of space, I often gave parts away at cost or well below what I paid (or what they were worth), if it was something I didn't need or something someone REALLY needed to finish their project. That (to me) is what the forums/enthusiast/collector vibe is all about. Yes, there is always a need to make money, no doubt there. And yes, on those auto forums we always had the guys who were strictly on the forum to sell their wares at a "for profit" price with no concern for 'helping members' or for lack of a better term, 'showing charity'. However, those same people at least contributed heavily to the forum in terms of advice, so at least there was SOME sort of showing of enthusiasm, albeit on a different level.

But this seems like a clear cut case of abusing (and in my opinion, outright lying) about the "mates rates" when he was only intended on re-selling the print as soon as he received it. To me, that leaves a bad aftertaste and left unchecked, can follow the "one bad apple spoils the whole bunch" saying....

(Sorry for the long post/rant) [Wink]

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Michael O'Regan
Film God

Posts: 3085
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted December 07, 2013 05:38 PM      Profile for Michael O'Regan   Email Michael O'Regan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
...are you sure it wasn't something where he already had an inferior copy and yours was better and he sold the inferior copy.

For the sake of completion, I wonder could Sam address this point, please [Smile]

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Dominique De Bast
Film God

Posts: 4486
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Jun 2013


 - posted December 07, 2013 05:58 PM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Michael, if it was that, the buyer would more than probably have written it in this thread as he is member of this forum and readed what we discussed above. No doubt that a genuine film collector would have clarified the situation if it all had been about a misunderstanding.

--------------------
Dominique

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Sam James
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 114
From: London
Registered: Oct 2005


 - posted December 09, 2013 06:51 AM      Profile for Sam James   Email Sam James   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi all,
Thank you for your input. My motivation for posting this topic was to express my dissapointment at my discovery and, in truth, laugh at my own naivity. I certainly wouldn't want to suggest that there are dark forces operating amongst us or any of that old codswallop. I received remuneration with which I'm happy for an item on which I did not have to pay commission. I have also expressed my niggle.
Being a glutton for punishment, I will be putting a newly serviced Xenon GS1200 up for sale in the New Year!
Hope you all have a cheerful Christmas.
Best regards,
Sam.
ps Given the content of the email I accidentally received, there is no doubt in my mind that the item I sold was resold and dispatched within 24 hours of it's arrival.

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Bill Brandenstein
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1632
From: California
Registered: Aug 2007


 - posted December 09, 2013 11:37 AM      Profile for Bill Brandenstein   Email Bill Brandenstein   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Larry's point is well taken because I've done exactly that from one of my below-market-value forum deals - got a better print and sold the original on eBay. But we're talking a few bucks here, nothing major.

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Jeff Missinne
Film Handler

Posts: 69
From: Superior, WI USA
Registered: Nov 2012


 - posted December 18, 2013 11:42 AM      Profile for Jeff Missinne   Email Jeff Missinne   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've advertised on this and another forum site looking for odd clips, etc. No real luck as yet, but I don't believe I would ever try any arm-twisting tactics re prices. If someone offers you an item you want and you don't like the price, just politely say no.

If they wish to lower their asking price on their own, all well and good; if they don't, chances are they'll find someone who will buy at their price, also OK. As for yourself, just keep looking and sooner or later something may turn up at a price you'll be happy with. This is not a hobby for the impatient! [Big Grin]

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Tommy Woods
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 146
From: Scouser
Registered: Feb 2011


 - posted December 18, 2013 01:07 PM      Profile for Tommy Woods   Email Tommy Woods   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Whilst Sam may feel "remunerated" it is an unfortunate fact of life that there are predators out there looking to make a fast buck from forum members,the problem exists not just on this forum its all over the net,the problem is we can't prevent it,unless of course we ban trading which takes away part of the fun.

--------------------
Let there be light,so god created the projector

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5468
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted December 18, 2013 07:12 PM      Profile for Winbert Hutahaean   Email Winbert Hutahaean   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If I may know, how much did you sell your item and what is the margin your "friend" has made now?

We have to be fair here, that if the item was sent overseas then the shipping cost + duty may increase the price a lot.

--------------------
Winbert

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Terry Sills
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1423
From: Weymouth,Dorset,England
Registered: Oct 2012


 - posted December 21, 2013 12:17 PM      Profile for Terry Sills   Email Terry Sills   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sam
Being a member of the forum, how about an offer of £25 for your GS1200. (ok just kidding)

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