8mm Forum: Time warp - digital didn't happen?

»	8mm Forum » General Yak » Time warp - digital didn't happen? (Page 2)

UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!

This topic comprises 2 pages: 1 2

Author

Topic: Time warp - digital didn't happen?

Lee Mannering
Film God

Posts: 3216
From: The Projection Box
Registered: Nov 2006

posted May 10, 2014 04:15 AM

On the face of it 3D printers are a great idea but I have never heard anyone talk about the longevity of the components they make. [Roll Eyes]

| IP: Logged

Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted May 10, 2014 07:34 AM

That's the problem right now with 3D printers. They just cannot be used to make parts out of traditional hard wearing materials such as alloys of steel, aluminum, copper, and Titanium. All they can do at the moment is generate parts using a lamination of low strength plastic material in a process called stereolithography. Therefore 3d printers are used mainly to replicate parts and assemblies during the design phase of an item, for instance to check the form fit and function of an Aluminum metal part before committing to the expense of tooling for production injection molding casting.

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

| IP: Logged

Mark Todd
Film God

Posts: 3846
From: UK
Registered: Aug 2003

posted May 10, 2014 09:45 AM

I suppose the compound has to be in liquid form initially.

I like the idea of an any title hd to super 8 set up if it could be done as half the problem is that .

Shorts, features etc even L+H, s etc.

Best Mark.

| IP: Logged

Pete Richards
Master Film Handler

Posts: 302
From: Australia
Registered: Sep 2010

posted May 20, 2014 07:12 PM

Jus ton the old sound-sync methods, how did they work?
Was the projector speed synchronised to the record player, or was the record player synched to the film projector?

I have been wondering about this for ages, it is a piece of cake to put a hall effect sensor on a super8 projector to get a 'sync pulse' out of it, but I don't know how you would go about modifying the projector to run at a speed synched with a soundtrack.

Re 3D printers, we print in hard-wearing vinyl right now, it makes parts just as durable as any plastic parts inside a typical projector.

A company I consult to also prints directly in Stainless Steel, Bronze or Tungsten from their 3D printer with one of these:
http://www.engineering.com/3DPrinting/3DPrintingArticles/ ArticleID/7618/ExOne-M-Flex-Production-Metal-3D-Printer.aspx

I made a 35mm stills camera on my 3D Printer, it actually works okay!
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:113865

| IP: Logged

Allan Broadfield
Master Film Handler

Posts: 452
From: Bromley, Kent
Registered: Nov 2010

posted May 23, 2014 01:45 PM

As interesting as these contributions are, have we perhaps wandered off the subject a little, chaps? The idea was that in this time warp, digital hadn't ever existed. How would our hobby have advanced?

| IP: Logged

Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted May 23, 2014 03:14 PM

It depends a lot on what you mean by "digital". Do you mean digital video, or video of any kind or do you mean the information processing technology that is the basis of modern computing?

The problem you run into is bending the course of technological development so that ideas stemming from common beginnings didn't all happen together in the way that is natural.

Once all electronics was analog, but digital information processing developed as a consequence.The math underlying digital technology actually existed back in the days of oil lamps, but needed electricity for it to do anything useful.

So in a world without digital video (or digital anything), there shouldn't be analog audio either.

Since cinema was originally an optical/chemical/mechanical technology, we could still have movies, but the sound would have to be a synchronized record with a big cone for "amplification". Without any electricity this would need to be powered by a kid on a stationary bike with a pulley and belt (or an itty-bitty steam engine) and the illumination would need to be some sort of magnesium flare.

So this could actually be what our hobby would be like in a world without digital technology. My wife is very good about my little cinema, but I think this would be really pushing the limits!

To me the real question is without film equipment being falsely obsoleted, what new technologies could have been incorporated and how would they change what we do.

--------------------
All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

| IP: Logged

Allan Broadfield
Master Film Handler

Posts: 452
From: Bromley, Kent
Registered: Nov 2010

posted May 25, 2014 05:49 AM

I suppose if you dig deeply enough you'd find that a lot of things eventually sprung from obscure beginnings. As soon as the adverts for video began appearing in the home movie mags I'm sure we all sensed the death knell of our hobby as we knew it. Despite the high cost of the equipment you could own a whole feature on one cassette. It was certainly tempting to me at the time.
If that hadn't happened, how would real film have developed without overpricing itself for us cash strapped enthusiasts?

[ May 30, 2014, 04:21 PM: Message edited by: Allan Broadfield ]

| IP: Logged

Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted May 25, 2014 06:18 AM

It's true: early video was marketed by promoting the cost advantages over film: "You get the entire feature with sound for a tenth what a film feature would cost".

Frankly, that's hard to fight. If you aren't a film hobbyist and don't enjoy all the time and effort we do, it's basically a no-brainer. Over dinner in the early 80s my uncle (neutral in this) told me nobody would be using film at all in 5 years. It was hard to argue the point.

I'd say all you need to do to see what 8 and 16mm film would be like now if it remained comercially viable is look at the 35mm cinema, since that was actively developed until a few years ago. For example, 35mm prints have a digital soundtrack (between the sprocket holes actually) as well as analog tracks for the theaters without digital capability. It's not too much of a stretch to imagine we'd have this too, or the two system digital sound I mentioned earlier.

(8mm platter system, anyone?)

Sad to say though, if home film projectors had followed the path of most consumer electronics, all but the premium ones would be flimsy crap meant for a trip to the landfill a few years down the road. The build quality of even a mid-range 1970s machine is amazing when you look at it in this light. This is why we still have them.

--------------------
All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

| IP: Logged

Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted May 25, 2014 09:19 AM

Well said Steve. I look at my Eumig 820 Sonomatic and the design and construction quality is superb. Same for the Eumig 938, although I would have preferred a little less plastic. And of course the Elmo GS1200, built like a tank - I wonder what they would cost today if they were still being made. Probably a small fortune, but as you say, it would most likely have a DTS and/or Dolby digital sound reader in addition to the mono optical and magnetic stereo capability.

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

| IP: Logged

Allan Broadfield
Master Film Handler

Posts: 452
From: Bromley, Kent
Registered: Nov 2010

posted May 25, 2014 11:53 AM

So the conclusion is that the non digital time warp couldn't have happened? I worked on setting up the digital sound printing techniques in the lab for 35mm and they were legion; SRD, SDDS, DTS as well as good old analogue, both silver and later cyan tracks, all on one piece of stock, several different companies having their fingers in each pie. Stereo four track mag. had been replaced by the digital systems printed with the picture in one pass. What was more inevitable is that they would be replaced by the hard drive arriving rather like an oversized box of dairy milk. I was one of many made redundant by this advance, but despite my hankering with the past I don't consider cinema dead yet, despite the comments of Tarantino the other day.

| IP: Logged

Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted May 25, 2014 02:01 PM

I think there is just a natural progression from the beginnings of electricity to analog signal processng to digital signal processing. The lightbulb begat the vaccuum tube, which begat the analog amplifier...and then the Eniac. In order for there to be no digital motion pictures a lot of people would have had to ignore all the possibilities of what that technology could do...as well as all that lovely money that could be made.

As far as quality goes, I am the Dad of an 11 year old boy and I've taken apart (and fixed) a lot of toys. I also work at places with industrial quality equipment. Modern consumer electronics looks a lot more like the toys and a decent quality movie projector looks a lot more like a piece of professional grade equipment.

Hey: here's a thought. There's a fairly recent technology that can electronically manipulate the opacity of a piece of glass. How about an electronic shutter? 3 flashes per frame at 18 FPS and two at 24.

(If you could use a high power LED as a projection lamp, you wouldn't need any shutter at all.)

--------------------
All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

| IP: Logged

Allan Broadfield
Master Film Handler

Posts: 452
From: Bromley, Kent
Registered: Nov 2010

posted May 25, 2014 04:22 PM

Excellent idea.

| IP: Logged

Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted May 25, 2014 05:12 PM

Modern projectors probably would have USB ports for things like synchronized sound recording and playback as well as computer controlled changeovers.

-it's entirely possible they would be shipped with a CD ROM inside the box!

--------------------
All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

| IP: Logged

All times are Central

This topic comprises 2 pages: 1 2

Printer-friendly view of this topic

UBB.classic^TM 6.3.1.2