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Topic: Standard/Regular 8 sound projector

David Pannell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1072
From: Horsham, West Sussex, UK
Registered: Nov 2004

posted June 04, 2005 08:09 AM

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I was just wondering, - is the Eumig Mark S the only Standard/Regular 8 sound projector worthy of consideration, or are there others? I am talking Standard/Regular 8 ONLY; NOT dual machines.

I ask simply because I haven't heard of, or seen any others!

What are other members' experiences?

Thanks,

Dave.

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Dave.

Valves and celluloid - a great combination!
Early technology rules OK!

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Tim Christian
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 219
From: Norfolk, UK
Registered: Jun 2003

posted June 04, 2005 11:28 AM

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The first R8 sound projectors were add-on units that sat underneath the silent projector. See magnetic sound history , hence the 54 frame offset.

Combined R8 sound projectors would be mostly pre-1965, when S8 came out. This means they would probably not use small halogen lamps, or use types that are difficult to find. I had a Filmo, but that used valves, as did many R8 sound projectors of the early '60s.

I find that the Eumig 800 series work just fine for R8 sound(I currently have an 802 and an 810 in regular use) so I haven't bothered with a dedicated machine.

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Tim

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Paul Adsett
Film God

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From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted June 04, 2005 11:49 AM

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The only other R8 sound projector that comes to mind is the Kodak sound 8. Based on the 16mm Pageant design, this is a superb machine but, as Tim points out, it uses a valve amplifier, so replacement valves may be hard or impossible to find. Based on my experience, the sound is much better from the Eumig machines, but the picture from the sound 8 was superb.

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Fabrizio Mosca
Master Film Handler

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From: Milano, Italy
Registered: Jan 2004

posted June 04, 2005 12:13 PM

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Other standard8 sound projectors are:
Silma Sonik (120mt spools)
Cirse sound (240mt spools)
Fumeo 8M (750mt spools)
Microtecnica OemmeO OPL (600mt spools)
All of them are italian machines, the first two have valves in the amplifier.

Silma sonik was also modified by the same Silma, during Montecatini festival in the 60-70ies to use an arc as lamp source.

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David Pannell
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From: Horsham, West Sussex, UK
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posted June 04, 2005 01:03 PM

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Many thanks, chaps. Most interesting. The Eumig Mark S has valves too, but also boasts a 100watt quartz halogen lamp. I see that CHC is advertising the Kodak model of which you speak, for £45. Wondered if I might enquire about it!!

Valves - no problem!

Dave.

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Dave.

Valves and celluloid - a great combination!
Early technology rules OK!

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Tim Christian
Expert Film Handler

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From: Norfolk, UK
Registered: Jun 2003

posted June 05, 2005 02:43 AM

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As you say, valves are no problem. It is often easier to find replacement valves for pre-WWII equipment than replacement ICs for ten-year old videos.

The main problem of valve electronics of that period were unstable resistors, especially high-value ones. When high-value resistors drift even higher, they can cause loss of gain and instability in valve amplifiers. Tracing the cause takes time and patience. Capacitors aren't too bad, although if the equipment hasn't been used for some time, it is advisable to run the supply voltage up slowly to reform electrolytics.

--------------------
Tim

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Chris Quinn
Master Film Handler

Posts: 372
From: England, Bedfordshire.
Registered: Nov 2003

posted June 05, 2005 09:33 AM

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Hi David,
I have recently required a Eumig mark S 710 from a fellow forum member and can tell you that these little dual projectors are excellent at running standard 8. Unlike some other dual projectors you actually have a second set of sprockets and film gate for running standard 8, there is a switch for the sound head and then off you go. A 100 watt halogen lamp gives you a bright picture and is rock steady, very well built and so far has given me no problems. like you i was looking for a dedicated standard 8, but have changed my mind and will carry on with the eumig, for all intense and purposes once set up for standard 8, a dedicated machine.

Chris.

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The other half thinks i'm up to something. Shes right of course.

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David Pannell
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Horsham, West Sussex, UK
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posted June 05, 2005 01:01 PM

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Hi Chris, and others,

I actually have acquired a couple of Eumig Mark S models, but both are in pretty poor shape really. I'll see if I can make one good machine out of them first, before lashing out any more cash. But I hear what you say. The Mark S is a dedicated standard 8 machine, though I'm open to positive suggestions like you describe. What I don't want is a compromise. I use an Elmo ST1200HD (bought from Kev F) for super 8, and an Elmo E-80 for standard 8. Though this is a silent machine, it is a work of art, the standard of engineering and workmanship is a joy to behold.

The S710 sounds like it might be the answer if I can't get what I want out of the S machines. I'm pretty well versed in troubleshooting electronics of yesteryear, as my early days were spent in electronics of the era. I still have stocks of valves and components including hi-stab resistors etc. So - time and patience will tell.

Cheers,

Dave.

--------------------
Dave.

Valves and celluloid - a great combination!
Early technology rules OK!

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David Pannell
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Horsham, West Sussex, UK
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posted June 06, 2005 01:11 AM

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BTW, Chris, is your S 710 capable of synchronised sound in Standard 8?

Am I right in thinking that if there is only one sound head, it is probably only displaced by the 18 frames required for Super 8 sound, instead of the 54 frames required for Standard 8 sound? If this is the case, sure, it will play Standard 8 sound, but will be dreadfully out of sync.

However, if the sound head can be plugged into 2 different positions, then fine - otherwise I'm afraid it's a non-starter.

Tim, excellent and informative article!! The Eumig 800 series of which you speak, - how does the machine compensate for the 2 different frame offsets between Super 8 and Standard 8?

Many thanks,

Dave.

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Dave.

Valves and celluloid - a great combination!
Early technology rules OK!

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Tim Christian
Expert Film Handler

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From: Norfolk, UK
Registered: Jun 2003

posted June 06, 2005 02:26 AM

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The 802D and 810D both have two film paths between the gate and the (double) sound head. When the gate elements are changed as part of the S8 - R8 changeover process, the gate moulding deflects the film through the correct-length path for the gauge. Sound head change is by a S - N switch. Finally, the two sprockets are changed (the two models use slightly different sprockets).

Both projectors give excellent results on R8 sound: perhaps better than earlier models due to improvements in sound head technology between the early '60s and the '70s. This period saw the introduction of compact cassettes which run at about half the speed of 8mm film and use tracks of about the same width.

Although the stripe on R8 is, in principle, slightly wider than for S8, the 0.9 mm R8 stripe has vanished so I use the same 0.8 mm width stripe for both and can hear no difference.

--------------------
Tim

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David Pannell
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From: Horsham, West Sussex, UK
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posted June 06, 2005 04:08 AM

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OK, Tim, I see!

That explains everything. Thanks so much. Sorry to be so ignorant about this particular issue - just haven't come across it before.

Will it accept Standard 8 reels, though?

Perhaps I should go for one of these and be done with it, instead of debating the Kodak Sound 8 at CHC for £45.

What do you think?

Dave.

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Dave.

Valves and celluloid - a great combination!
Early technology rules OK!

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Tim Christian
Expert Film Handler

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From: Norfolk, UK
Registered: Jun 2003

posted June 06, 2005 06:17 AM

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Dual-gauge projectors usually have a 5/16" (R8) feed shaft and are supplied with an adapter to 1/2" (S8). I have found no exception to this. It is worth checking that this adaptor comes with a secondhand projector.

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Tim

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David Pannell
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From: Horsham, West Sussex, UK
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posted June 06, 2005 08:12 AM

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That's what I thought, and hoped. Thanks Tim.

BTW, there is a supplier of Standard 8 sound films - many B&W westerns - but I've forgotten who they are; not Derann's, CHC or Perry's - just can't think. Any ideas?

Dave.

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Dave.

Valves and celluloid - a great combination!
Early technology rules OK!

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Tim Christian
Expert Film Handler

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From: Norfolk, UK
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posted June 06, 2005 08:37 AM

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Try Paul Foster or Independent 8 on the BFCC site .

--------------------
Tim

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Chris Quinn
Master Film Handler

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From: England, Bedfordshire.
Registered: Nov 2003

posted June 06, 2005 08:39 AM

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Hi David,
I concur with what Tim has already said, my eumig does exactly what Tim has said, the gates deflect the film to the correct path depending on what your showing, standard or super. perfect sound sync. The 7-10 has a brilliant amplifier, i am still amazed at how good it is, also built like miniature tank!
Eumig S models are always coming up on ebay, knowing what i know now i would definitely go for another eumig dual.

Chris.

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David Pannell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1072
From: Horsham, West Sussex, UK
Registered: Nov 2004

posted June 06, 2005 08:52 AM

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IT WAS INDEED PAUL FOSTER FILMS - HOW COULD I FORGET?!

WHAT AN IDIOT! [Eek!]

[Eek!]

[Eek!]

[Eek!]

A million thanks to you both.

Best,

Shamefully, Dave.

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Dave.

Valves and celluloid - a great combination!
Early technology rules OK!

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Mal Brake
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 591
From: Neath, South Wales, UK
Registered: Jun 2003

posted June 06, 2005 06:59 PM

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My friend has an Ilford/Elmo standard 8 machine and it has excellent sound quality. I use an almost unused 710D for standard 8mm.
Mal

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I'm gonna live forever or die trying

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John Whittle
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Northridge, CA USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted June 06, 2005 08:00 PM

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quote:
advertising the Kodak model of which you speak, for £45. Wondered if I might enquire about it!!

David,

Haven't found the tubes (valves) in the amp to be a problem--it's actually a hybride with a transistor pre-amp and tube output stage. BUT there were three versions of this projector (at least in the US) and the first two used a DHJ lamp that is next to impossible to find (it's higher on the endangered species list than the spotted owl). The last version had a 24 volt lamp. Maybe a different lamp was used in the export version, but check for projection lamp availability on all these old machines. The DAR lamp for the 8mm Filmos is also extinct.

John

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David Pannell
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Horsham, West Sussex, UK
Registered: Nov 2004

posted June 07, 2005 01:24 AM

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Thanks, John.

In that case, I think I'll probably give it a miss anyway, and go for the Eumig 810D.

Best,

Dave.

--------------------
Dave.

Valves and celluloid - a great combination!
Early technology rules OK!

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Tim Christian
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 219
From: Norfolk, UK
Registered: Jun 2003

posted June 07, 2005 07:26 AM

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Yes, the 810D is probably the best of them. If you need a manual, you are welcome to a copy.

Changing the gate elements requires some care. Remember to withdraw the claw by setting the inching knob so that the red dot is on top.

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Tim

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David Pannell
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Horsham, West Sussex, UK
Registered: Nov 2004

posted June 07, 2005 08:27 AM

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Thanks, Tim. Your advice is most welcome. I'll certainly let you know if I need the manual.

Dave.

--------------------
Dave.

Valves and celluloid - a great combination!
Early technology rules OK!

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