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Author
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Topic: Super 8mm vs standard 8mm
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Jan Bister
Darth 8mm
Posts: 2629
From: Ohio, USA
Registered: Jan 2005
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posted August 22, 2005 08:14 PM
2. and 3.: I don't know.
4.: Yes, standard 8mm film can still be bought and used. I'm about 90% sure of that.
And 1.: Kodak simply wanted to improve upon the then-popular 8mm format, and designed super-8 which premiered in 1965. It wasn't just about the film itself - one drawback of standard 8mm film was the difficult camera loading (via spools) and having to flip the film over halfway through - remember, this was 16mm-wide film with doubled sprocket holes, twice exposed, then slit down the middle after processing and spliced together to form an 8mm film.
Kodak's super-8 cartridge was designed for simple snap-in film loading, and had the pressure plate built into the cartridge (whereas standard 8mm cameras provide their own pressure plate mechanism).
So it had a lot to do with comfort and ease of use, which proved most attractive to the consumer back then and helped super-8 become a massive success... as we all know. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
It was never about Kodak competing with itself by pitting the two 8mm formats against each other... rather, about making improvements to what was there.
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Call me Phoenix. *dusts off the ashes*
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David Pannell
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1072
From: Horsham, West Sussex, UK
Registered: Nov 2004
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posted August 23, 2005 08:45 AM
As you probably already know by now, I shoot with both types, using my Sankyo Auto 5X for Std. 8, and either my Bauer S409XL or S609XL for Super 8.
Yes! Standard/Regular 8 is alive and kicking and readily obtainable in both B&W and colour.
I find each has its merits, depending on what you are trying to achieve, but suffice it to say that I will always have a soft spot for Standard 8. (And honestly, turning the film over is no real hassle - I've been doing it for years. Also Standard 8 equipment seems to be far more forgiving than its Super 8 counterpart).
However, checking back through some of these threads, it will be seen that I have addressed this before and one can find the best sources for both purchase and processing of Super 8 as well as Standard 8.
In fact, in terms of full length features, I have recently agreed to purchase no less than 13 Standard 8 sound prints from Paul Foster, and will be collecting them hopefully when he returns from his hols following the Bank Holiday - CAN'T WAIT !!
SO, - YEAH - !
Dave.
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Dave.
Valves and celluloid - a great combination!
Early technology rules OK!
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Osi Osgood
Film God
Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted August 23, 2005 10:35 AM
You know, starnge thing about the Standard 8mm prints, (and maybe something that David Pannell can answer), I have a number of Blackhawk standard 8mm prints, as well as super 8, and I have honestly found, that the standard 8mm have a better sharpness, most of the time, as well as a better contrast to the image. A good example of this was my two prints of "Double Whoopee" (Laurel and Hardy), my Standard 8mm print is far and away, a much better looking print than the super 8 print. Yes, super 8 has the potential of being sharper and such. I wonder if perhaps, Blackhawk was getting lazier as time progressed. I notice that the earlier Blackhawk silent era prints would have an explantion as to where thier "masters" came from and the process by which they were copied. I think the deletion of this material was just to save a little "footage" cost. But I do prefer the standard 8mm Blackhawks over thier super 8's.
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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "
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David Pannell
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1072
From: Horsham, West Sussex, UK
Registered: Nov 2004
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posted August 23, 2005 11:43 AM
Craig,
I doubt very much if I have funded Paul's holiday, as after some discussion, he favoured me with an unbeatable discount for quantity. And he seemed to be the only source for the material that I was looking for, specifically Standard 8 sound - so we both win. I, too, have to watch the pennies. That's why it actually took me quite a while to make up my mind. Paul will confirm how long I dithered! However, you will see that pretty well all the westerns and some horror/thrillers have now disappeared from his latest Standard 8mm list.
Osi,
I think I would tend to agree. Are we both missing something here, though? As I said, I do 'somehow' find Standard 8 more "user friendly" - oh! how I hate that expression! Is this purely psychological, or is it fact, I ask you? Are the optics more critical with Super 8, or does their quality tend to be a little wanting, with the presumably greater volume of mass production than Standard 8 might have enjoyed.
Anyone out there with expertise in the field of commercial optics, or able to explain the difference Osi and I experience; and has anyone else found the same thing? It would be interesting to hear.
Best,
Dave.
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Dave.
Valves and celluloid - a great combination!
Early technology rules OK!
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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God
Posts: 5468
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted August 23, 2005 01:22 PM
Thanks for all replies.
Now there are 2 questions have not been answered:
3. When was the last time of commercial 8mm released in Standard 8mm? I don't think Derann had ever released it, hadn't it?
4. Any Standard 8mm stocks are still being marketed now (I add here, since David has given a clue about this question, actually. I am asking a pure 8mm stock, not double 8mm, where we have to slit it during process. I am asking something like K-40 cartridge, so is there std 8mm inside the cartridge being marketed today?)
As always happen to a newbies....question...and ...question.
To David and Osi..and of course to anybody who has an answer: If in Super 8mm we have the best projector i.e Elmo GS (Kev) or Sankyo (Mike) ...so what is the best projector for Standard 8mm. I am not loooking for a dual gauge projector like Eumig, but more a dedicated for Std 8mm but has a good motor, good lense, good bulb, good...etc...etc.
Thanks,
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Winbert
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Osi Osgood
Film God
Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted August 23, 2005 02:53 PM
Actually, I too am looking for a decent Standard 8mm projector, as I have both sound and silent standard 8mm, but I'm not able to enjoy the sound ones at the moment.
I do have a beautiful MINT CONDITION P8 Eumig, (ah, lovely little thing she is!)
I wouldn't mind finding a Kodak ektrchrome super 8 deck, (I think that's what it is called), as I had good luck with a silent opne of those and the sound version plays both super and Standard.
Back to the debate, "I do think that Blackhawk may have not put as much quality control in thier later super 8 releases. The earlier super 8's are quite reliable. (I have no idea if I'm answering a blessed thing!!!)
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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "
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Paul Adsett
Film God
Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted August 23, 2005 04:38 PM
I think you can find top quality projectors in both standard 8 and super 8, as well as cheap trashy ones. Both film sizes were of course very popular with the masses, and a large part of this was due to the availability of cheap cameras and projectors in supermarket stores such as (in the USA) Sears, K-mart, and Montgomery Ward. Such stores would invariably carry the least expensive (and worse designed!) projectors with poor optics and questionable film paths. But most people did'nt care, because the results you got were quite acceptable. For serious movie makers and collectors, there was plenty of superb quality equipment on standard 8, if you wanted to pay for it. The Bolex M8, Bolex 18-5, Bell & Howell 600/Regent/Filmaster and Eumig P8 were all examples of the very best quality standard 8 projectors, and there are still plenty of these on eBay at give-away prices. When Super 8 came along, there was a plethora of cheap plastic projectors from people like Kodak, Bell & Howell, GAF and others, and these should all be avoided. At the same time the top quality Super 8 projectors can put even the best standard 8 projectors in the dust, due to the advances in low voltage halogen lighting and computer generated optics. The best super 8 projectors are of course from Elmo, Eumig, Heurtier, Beaulieu, Sankyo and a few others.
Most of my Super 8 Blackhawk prints are excellent, but I do have a few poor quality L& H's and Little Rascals. The best super 8 B&W print I have evr seen is my Blackhawk print of the Little Rascals film ' Hook and Ladder'- absolutely stunning quality.
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The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj
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Osi Osgood
Film God
Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted August 23, 2005 05:06 PM
Kevin, that's a good point. In some of the later releases, like, for instance, "Brats", there's on the leader, mention of new master prints. I had noticed that an earlier silent version (also super 8) of "Brats" has MUCH BETTER contrast, though the sharpness on either print are not up to the usual high Blackhawk standards.
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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "
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Michael De Angelis
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1261
From: USA
Registered: Jul 2003
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posted August 23, 2005 09:15 PM
John Wittle,
A splendid history of Std. 8! Thanks for sharing. I had to read it twice,
it was very satisfying.
I wish that I would be able to locate a Sears Director Standard 8 Projector,
as well as a working Kodak Sound 8.
Kev. F.
I agree regarding the printing of some of the L&H Super 8 Blackhawks. At a time it seemed that the material was duped from Standard 8 material. I'm not saying that it was duped, only that it had the apperance of dupe material.
However there was a brief period around 1979, that they had a master negs and excellent lab printing work for many of their shorts. One Good Turn, Chickens Come Home, and Any Old Port are absolutely stunning.
Some early silent and Standard 8 sound L&H, Stan Laurel solo comedies and Charlie Chase by Blackhawk, rival 16mm.
The Sound editions are not picture perfect due to the lack of a balance stripe to support the film in the gate.
But the quality and contrast is sharp and vivid, with great detail.
Paul,
I have a Blackhawk Super 8 Sound print of Moan and Groan Inc. starring the Our Gang Little Rascals, and it is stunning as is Hook and Ladder.
Winbert,
There was a Film Library here in NYC many years ago and it was run inside of a camera store- Similar to what Derann has established in the UK.
It was the named the Select Film Library in a Camera Store known as Willoughby/Peerless.
To my understanding, SELECT, made their own titles from negs in Standard 8, Super 8 and 16mm. I do not know if they also printed sound titles, but back in 1975 I was told by the counter man, that Standard 8 was a dead format.
From his point of view in business, the demand was not as vibrant as it was in Super 8. It was believed that who wants to watch a silent film? I was told it was equated to watching your favorite TV program with the sound off.
Well to each their own. At least we can still chew on the past.
Michael
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Isn't it great that we can all communicate about this great
hobby that we love!
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Osi Osgood
Film God
Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted August 24, 2005 11:11 AM
Could this potentially be because of the film used? Standard 8mm was, after all, 16mm double sprocket cut down to two film strips. Now, I don't know a lot about super 8 processing, but isn't this a whole different film, not cut down from one whole?
Either that, or the printers and such, (I don't know the technical names), that produced standard 8mm, were of a higher caliber, after all, this was the format for a good twenty or thirty years before super 8 was commercially in existence. They had a lot of time to perfect standard 8mm.
My personal best standard 8mm print is "Birth of a Nation" which has a sharpness and contrast you rarely even see on super 8 in it's best day. The scource material is what really makes this one stunning, it really doesn't have the appearance of a constantly run original print. I never have found out where that print was manufactured. I know it's not Blackhawk.
Recently, I saw someone actually selling a OPTICAL SOUND standard 8mm print of "Futureworld" Now, this came out in 1976, (the original film), so standard 8mm was used in the airline film industry for potentially longer than in mainstream collecting.
BOY!! I wish I'd picked that up. Not that I could have watched it, I was curious, however at just how good the print might have been!
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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "
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Paul Adsett
Film God
Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted August 24, 2005 02:23 PM
I think the reasons that standard 8 home movies look so much better than super 8 are :
1) Standard 8 cameras used roll film and they had precision metal gates and pressure pads. Super 8 cameras of course use the Kodak plastic cartridge , where the gate pressure pad is inside the cartridge and made of plastic. The super 8 cartridge was hated by a lot of people from day 1, and if you wanted really sharp steady pictures you either used double super 8 in special DS8 cameras, or the superior Fuji single 8 camera and film.
2) When super 8 came out a lot of cameras and projectors started using zoom lenses. No matter how good a zoom lens is, it just cannot compare with the quality you get from fixed focal length prime lenses. This is because of all the optical elements needed to correct zoom lenses, and every optical surface in the lens produces some scatter of light, resulting in loss of contrast. Superior standard 8 cameras of the day used superb glass prime lenses, such as the Bolex 8mm cameras fitted with Kern Switar lenses. These gave stunning contrast and definition on standard 8 Kodachrome, and were so much superior to most super 8 cameras with plastic zoom lenses.
This applies to projectors as well as cameras. As sharp as my Elmo f1.0 12.5mm to 30mm projection zoom lens is (and it is very sharp)it is outshined by my Kodak Ektar f1.0 20mm fixed focus lens, which has edge -to-edge razor sharp resolution and far superior contrast.
So the combination of superior gate design, using roll film, and superb quality non-zoom lenses in both camera and projector is the reason that standard 8 home movies can be so much better than super 8. All things being equal of course, super 8 is exactly 50% better than standard 8 due to the increased frame area.
[ August 24, 2005, 05:15 PM: Message edited by: Paul Adsett ]
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The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj
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John Whittle
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 791
From: Northridge, CA USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted August 24, 2005 08:01 PM
quote:
I wish that I would be able to locate a Sears Director Standard 8 Projector,
as well as a working Kodak Sound 8.
Michael, careful on your Kodak Sound 8. There are three different versions of the projector (They're all called Kodak Sound 8 Model 1) you can tell them apart by the serial number (stamped on the steel of the elevator color as "A", "B" "C". The A & B should be avoided because they use the extinct DHJ lamp which will cost mroe than the projector if you can find one. The "C" version used a 24 volt lamp that you're far more likely to find. Otherwise consider modfication to a new lamp.
Osi,
Regular 8mm was normally printed double rank on 16mm stock perfed 2R1500 and then slit after processing. Prints were contact from reduction negatives made from 16mm fine grain masters.
Super8 was printed a number of ways. There was the double rank stock (perfed 2R1667) but most negatives were 16mm and a continous optical reduction printer (CORP) was used that made a continous reduction print. There was also (and this was used by Rank, Deluxe, Technicolor, CFI and other big labs when they made big print order) a 35mm print stock with five rows of perforations (5R1667) which was slit into four prints after developing. Again a 16mm negative was used and the printer had special optics to produce the print. Bell & Howell and Peterson and HFC made these priners. There was also an "outboardL" sounding machine that operated in tandem with the printer and transferd sound onto the four stipes at high speed at the same time.
It was common for commercial use to make thousands of super8 prints for those little rear projection suitcase projectors.
For Blackhawk and Castle and other home movie companies, the print needs were lower and in the case of Castle and Blackhawk other labs were used. The difference in quality I think can be traced to the labs that did the work. The early regular 8 prints in the US were made by The Calvin Company (maker of the MovieMite projector and the Calvin sound 8 projector). At a later point the work was moved to a lab in New York (Calvin was in Kansas City, MO).
John
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