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Topic: About Derann prints...

Flavio Stabile
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 707
From: Roma, Italia
Registered: Feb 2005

posted July 24, 2006 04:09 AM

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Hi All,

I was wondering if also Derann Super 8 prints may be affected by the problem of faded colors...

Infact I recently bought a copy of SCARS OF DRACULA, in 4x400' and it seems to me that is faded to red. It is in polyester but the quality of the print is absolutely lower than my other Hammer movie, HORROR OF DRACULA, which shows real stunning colors!

Could someone tell me more about this release, which is even cut and incomplete, I have just bought and that is not so good?

thanks
Flavio

[ August 01, 2006, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: Flavio Stabile ]

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Barry Attwood
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From: Enfield, U.K.
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posted July 24, 2006 04:41 AM

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Flavio,

This is an earlier Derann 4x400' edited feature release and some of them had a red bias inherent in the print (and negative), so even though you've got a polyester print this would be the norm for this title, this is why Derann re-released it many years later F/L and the print quality is stunning on this as it came off a 16mm interneg.

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

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From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003

posted July 24, 2006 04:56 AM

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Barry's spot on. Some of Deranns earlier cut downs and 400 ft releases were on the dreaded Eastman stocks prior to LPP and then Agfa.
If its on Ployester stock then it's one of the low fade stocks and it will be down to the way it was printed or the origination so shouldnt change in terms of colour etc.

Best thing to do is to keep your eyes open for the F/L version.

Kev.

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GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Flavio Stabile
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From: Roma, Italia
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posted July 24, 2006 06:38 AM

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many thanks!
So I should search now for the latest version... but it is no more available, isn't it?

Flavio

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Flavio Stabile
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From: Roma, Italia
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posted July 24, 2006 06:44 AM

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many thanks!
So I should search now for the latest version... but it is no more available, isn't it?

Flavio

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Adrian Winchester
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From: Croydon, London, UK
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posted July 25, 2006 01:15 PM

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Don't think so but you may find a second hand one sometime.

This thread makes me wonder: not all polyester prints in circulation are low fade, are they? Are some of the non-Agfa Marketing prints that have faded, polyester pre-LPP Eastman?

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Adrian Winchester

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

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From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003

posted July 25, 2006 04:52 PM

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Adrian, Thats a very good point you make as I have wondered about this too. As far as I know Kodak introduced Poly prints at the same time as LPP but I have wondered if they were introducing poly towards the end of the production of SP.

One way to check this is to get anyone who has any Marketing prints which have started to fade to check to see if it is Polyester and what the edge signing says.

It is possible that some of this stock was thin base Acetate which was about but then that would break easily hence my question about checking the base itself.

Kev.

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GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Andrew Wilson
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From: dundonald,belfast,co.antrim,northern ireland.
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posted July 30, 2006 09:05 AM

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Back in the 70's,when derann released SCARS OF DRACULA,along
with a few other Hammer films;that title became the biggest seller
of derann's titles.
They also used eastman colour at that time.
Also they could only get the rights to abridede versions
back then,like all the companies did.
The change came when derek and derann-gone alone..in about 84/85.
Then their got low fade stock prints.Andy.

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Andrew Wilson
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From: dundonald,belfast,co.antrim,northern ireland.
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posted July 30, 2006 09:06 AM

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Back in the 70's,when derann released SCARS OF DRACULA,along
with a few other Hammer films;that title became the biggest seller
of derann's titles.
They also used eastman colour at that time.
Also they could only get the rights to abridede versions
back then,like all the companies did.
The change came when derek and derann-gone alone..in about 84/85.
Then their got low fade stock prints.Andy.The rest is history...

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John Clancy
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posted July 30, 2006 11:30 AM

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Are you sure they didn't start releasing on low fade stocks in 1982 when the stock was first produced?

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British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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Andrew Wilson
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From: dundonald,belfast,co.antrim,northern ireland.
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posted July 30, 2006 12:17 PM

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Well John,maybe it was 1982.i only came back to Super8mm after a 20+year lay off.That was the half-a-picture-VIDEO System.
Anyway i thought that Derann at one point were going to stop
doing super8 releases.That was in 1982,but Derek and derann
thankfully contiued.Long may they do so.
Super8mm worst years were 1981-83.i think.Andy.
P.s Derann did take over marketing/parmount/universal8 around1980-
after capitol went to the wall,but dont you need machines to produce/reduce Super8mm?.I think derek had to seach for a while
to get those machines;but boy when he did..See the results in DERANN'S catol.even now.

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Adrian Winchester
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From: Croydon, London, UK
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posted July 31, 2006 06:52 PM

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If you think in terms of the major Super 8 'revival' that began with Derann's release of 'Raise the Titanic', we know the vast majority of releases have since been on low fade stock, but there seems to have been the odd instance of a lab using up some stock that wasn't low fade. I have a print of the feature 'All Coppers Are', released around a year after 'Raise the Titanic', which is faded.

Occasional non-polyester prints slipped through too; I used to have a print of the 600' version of 'The Fog' that was acetate for some reason.

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Adrian Winchester

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John Clancy
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Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
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posted August 01, 2006 05:00 AM

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Andrew, thankfully the production of Super 8 releases is done by the labs and no relation to Derann other than the fact that Derann are customers. Where Derek did have to track down machines was to do with striping. When Kodak announced the withdrawal of pre-stripe stock Derek set about purchasing a striping machine and establishing a way to make the paste stripe stick to the polyester stock. Amazingly, he didn't lose his hair through the stress.

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British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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Gary Crawford
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posted August 01, 2006 06:07 AM

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Also, for what's its worth. Horror of Dracula was done in IB technicolor....and was rich, rich rich in color to start with. Scars was not produced that way and never had what I call "stunning" color to begin with. I remember seeing it in its first (delayed) theatrical release in the U.S. and thinking that the picture quality was not up to the usual Hammer standard. My abridged Super 8 Scars of Dracula from Derrann is not too bad as far as fade. But it's obviously made from a print with whatever inherent loss is involved in that process. Not bad, though. The person who sold it to me assured me that , as "far as he knew" the print was unedited, but its missing quite a lot .

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Paul Spinks
Master Film Handler

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From: Barking, Essex, UK
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posted August 01, 2006 07:00 AM

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I recently obtained a 4x400ft black and white Derann print of "Scars of Dracula" on ebay and it looks surprisingly good. A bit like a lavish Universal horror film. It has very good contrast and I'm really pleased with it. Did Derann release any more black and white prints of their colour feature prints?
Best wishes,
Paul.

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Adrian Winchester
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posted August 01, 2006 07:44 AM

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Good question, I suppose there might have been a few others in the days that b/w stock was far cheaper. Mountain produced some b/w versions of colour feature releases.

One of the reasons I feel that 'Scars' is the weakest film in the Hammer Dracula series is the relatively bland lighting, that helps show up the low budget look of the sets seen in this film. I'm inclined to think that this may have contributed more to the look of the film than the stock it was shot on, considering there were some far more atmospheric looking Hammer films show around the same time. Maybe b/w is the ideal way to see 'Scars'!

[ August 01, 2006, 01:41 PM: Message edited by: Adrian Winchester ]

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Adrian Winchester

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Flavio Stabile
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Roma, Italia
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posted August 01, 2006 11:38 AM

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Sorry to say I don't like to see in B/W a movie that was in color in origin. Furthermore I don't like incomplete movies...
So now that I know that a 'complete' and with 'good colors' Derann copy of this movie exists my search has just began... [Cool]

[Cool]

Flavio

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Steven Sigel
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posted August 01, 2006 11:51 AM

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Polyester (Mylar/Estar) based film stocks have NOTHING to do with the color stability.

The earliest polyester stocks were in the early 1970s -- long before the advent of low-fade stocks.

One of the first uses for polyester stock was Airline prints.

I have no idea where the myth comes from that all polyester prints are low fade -- it's nonsense.

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Andrew Wilson
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From: dundonald,belfast,co.antrim,northern ireland.
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posted August 01, 2006 02:01 PM

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Hi Flavio,I don't think it will be easy to find SCARS OF DRACULA
full lenght feature.
It's funny;that cut down you have WAS derann's biggest seller
of all time.it's still highly reguared.
I think Adrian will tell you that even today.Andy.
P.S Good luck in your search.

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Tony Milman
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posted August 01, 2006 02:48 PM

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Well now, I picked up a copy of Scars of Dracula a few months back and I have yet to sit down to it. Umm, is this the cut down or the full length version I wonder?

Not able to remeber the original, it seems to be on 2 very full 800ft sppols but is there a nice easy way to tell if there are any bits missing?

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Tony

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Adrian Winchester
Film God

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From: Croydon, London, UK
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posted August 01, 2006 06:10 PM

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Tony,
The full length version runs 96 mins, so I don't think it could be packed on to two 800' spools. However, if it's the 4 x 400', I don't think each spool would have more than 700' on it. I'm pretty sure that the 400' version had a sequence lasting a few minutes that was not in the 4 x 400', so maybe that has been cut into it.

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Adrian Winchester

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John Clancy
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Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
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posted August 02, 2006 02:58 AM

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The 400ft version has the stupid bar girl running off because "my village isn't like this, I'm going before I end up like you!". Of course, ol' Drac picks her off before she gets far. Also, the amazingly realistic bats attacking the priest in the church is in the 400ft and may not be in the 4x400ft.

I haven't seen the 4x400ft for about 25 years but I seem to recall Dennis Waterman being locked in a room in the castle and then from nowhere a rope appears outside his window enabling him to escape. Who threw it? Where did it come from? What an example of great editing.

Don't Derann still supply the 3x600ft uncut feature new?

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British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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