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Topic: Elmo ST-1200 HD -- scratched film?

Tony Stucchio
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 625
From: New Jersey
Registered: Dec 2005

posted December 17, 2005 04:45 PM

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I've noticed that my Elmo ST-1200 HD tends to scratch some films, particularly color films. (Maybe because it is more noticeable?)
My Eumig 810D keeps films relatively clean. I keep the ELMO very clean. I've read here on this forum about the GS1200 having this problem. Anyone ever experience it with the ST-1200 HD?

Thanks.

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Tom Photiou
Film God

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From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003

posted December 18, 2005 03:50 AM

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Usually if your noticing scratches on the 1200 if the film path is clean all the way through its normally one or more of the green guides. Where do the scratches appear on screen, is it a straight still line or does the scratch move up and down or sideways? One of the main culprits is the 2ns sprocket guide.

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Tony Stucchio
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 625
From: New Jersey
Registered: Dec 2005

posted December 18, 2005 10:43 AM

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They are straight vertical lines that come and go. I just watched a B&W print last night that I have run many times through this projector -- a 20-minute subject. I didn't notice any lines -- and it is a bright print, not a dark one that may hide lines. Color films almost always show the lines. One thing that I've noticed is that the lines never show up on the first run of a print through the projector. So it must be something after it runs through the gate.

Several years ago I added my own plastic roller after the final green guide before the take-up reel. The one that is supposed to be there was missing when I bought the projector in pre-eBay days. Once I saw a picture of this model on eBay I realized that I was missing a piece, so I improvised by borrowing a roller from an old Bell & Howell silent projector I had. It is makeshift, but it keeps the films from rubbing against the green piece. But anyway, that didn't solve the problem.

What are the next steps I should do to further diagnose? How can I tell what is really causing it?

Thanks.

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Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003

posted December 18, 2005 03:10 PM

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Does your model have two roller wheels after the haed but before the 2nd sprocket, if so check these are clean using an alcahol cleaner, as a matter of course i would certainly change that large 2nd sprocket guide, that is almost certainly worn,use a small torch or lamp to chech for gunk built up within the heads as well. You'll be surprised where dirt builds up.

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

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From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003

posted December 18, 2005 05:14 PM

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Make sure that all the small rollers turn freely. Also has your HD got metal rollers or plastic in the top sprocket guide.
The earlier ST1200's have metal and these tend to get gummed up with muck and then stop turning. The film then wears flats on these metal rollers which end up scratching the film. During the run of HD's Elmo replaced these with white plastic rollers which dont suffer from this problem.
I can probably lay my hands on a couple for you if need be [Smile]

[Smile]

One other thing to note is that it is possible for your Eumig to be the cause of this problem if it's down the extreme edge of your films. It has a smaller film aperture compared to the Elmo which does show virtually the whole film frame. Any scratching on the Eumig may not be seen untill you view the film on one of the Elmo machines.
Kev.

--------------------
GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Tony Stucchio
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 625
From: New Jersey
Registered: Dec 2005

posted December 18, 2005 09:34 PM

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Thanks Tom and Kevin.

The lines are away from the edges, toward the center of the screen, so I know it is not the Eumig, which I use primarily for my Regular 8mm prints now anyway. The top 2 rollers are the plastic ones, and they do rotate freely. I don't think those are the culprit -- I never notice the scratches the first time the print runs through.

My machine has 2 rubber roller wheels before the second (final) sprocket wheel. I have always kept them very clean. I am the type who likes to brush the gate and spray compressed air in hard-to-get places after each and every reel. I do the alcohol cleaning periodically. All the rubber rollers seem to turn freely as well. The rubber roller connected to the internal "heavy" wheel also turns when the film is running.

By the "large 2nd sprocket guide", do you mean the green piece that springs back up when you press it and release? I have always kept that very clean as well.

I originally thought the only way a film could get scratched was through the gate, but I guess that is not the case. A few more observances:

- The beginning of reels don't seem to scratch as much, if at all. After about 50 to 100 feet they seem to show up.
- They are definitely base scratches, not emulsion.
- It must be something very subtle, since B&W Blackhawks and Castles don't seem to be that susceptible. It's the color films (Ken and Columbia digests, Tom & Jerry cartoons) where the problem really is annoying. However, I have a Red Fox color feature that I've run several times, and besides the occasional scratch, it has stayed mostly clean. Same for some Derann color Disney shorts. But I am still hesitant to run them again until I know I have solved the problem.

Being new to the forum, I'm delighted to get such quick responses. Thanks again.

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

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From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003

posted December 19, 2005 04:32 AM

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Tony, The best way to locate the part scratching is to stop the film part way through and then mark specific parts of the film with a chinagraph pencil ie, before first sprocket, before entry to the gate, after gate, before sound head etc etc. Then you can remove the film manually from the machine and hopefully narrow down the point where this occuring. As you dont see it the first time it's probably after the gate. Hopefully this method will find the source for you.

Kev.

--------------------
GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Tony Stucchio
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 625
From: New Jersey
Registered: Dec 2005

posted December 23, 2005 05:02 PM

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I have become a near expert at removing all the parts of the film path for easier inspection and cleaning. It is amazing how much dirt builds up in hard to see areas -- I have always used a foam swab to clean the path thinking I was getting all the dirt.

After thoroughly cleaning the path after dis-assembling, I thought I had the problem solved -- I ran about a 10 foot piece of color scrap (but clean) film through the machine several times while closly watching the projected image. First 2 or 3 times through, no scratches appeared on screen. By about the 4th, the scratch showed up!

It looks like it might be the large 2nd sprocket guide that is the problem, though I am not 100% yet. There appear to be scratches on the guide itself at approximately the area where the film physically is scratched. My next experiment will be to run a film through without this in place, since I have concluded that the piece is only necessary during threading. Is this a valid conclusion? I'll try and let you know.

Thanks again everyone for the help.

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Tom Photiou
Film God

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From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003

posted December 24, 2005 08:14 AM

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I'm sure it will be that sprocket guide, i'm sure they are still availible for around £2-£4 each. I bought four last year. Kevin did mention in a thread before that you can also help solve the wear by using very find wet and dry paper but i'd let Kevin explain that fix better. [Wink]

[Wink]

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Jan Bister
Darth 8mm

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From: Ohio, USA
Registered: Jan 2005

posted December 24, 2005 11:52 AM

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There's one catch... Tony says these are base scratches, not emulsion ones. The bottom sprocket guide, alas, touches the emulsion side. The base side of the film runs around the sprocket itself.
Something else is wrong here...

--------------------
Call me Phoenix. *dusts off the ashes*

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Paul Adsett
Film God

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From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted December 24, 2005 12:06 PM

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Boy sometimes I don't know about these Elmo's. They are great projectors for sure, when they are constantly maintained, but why do they have all these areas of scratch problems in virtually the whole of the film path- top film guides, top roller, bottom tension assy, bottom film sprocket, rollers that dont spin etc etc.? I know some people don't like Eumigs, but I can honestly say that a Eumig has never scratched a single frame of my films in 30 years and that means a heck of a lot to me! Not so the GS1200, which seems like it needs constant vigilance to avoid putting scratch lines through whole reels of fim. So it seems to me that Eumig really knew how to design their projectors to be kind to film, whereas Elmo's have a definite design deficiency in this area. To me running Elmo's is a constant maintainance task of meticulously cleaning the film path, looking out for wear areas on the film guides, disassembling and cleaning rollers to keep them spinning , and so on, whereas running a Eumig is so relaxing in comparison, just blow out the film gate and that's it, except for an occasional cleaning and polishing of the entire film path.

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
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Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

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From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003

posted December 24, 2005 12:27 PM

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Sorry Paul, I dont agree with you on that one. I have seen Eumigs scratch as well. And in some cases you dont see edge scratces as the gate aperture is smaller than on say the Elmo & Noris machines. Put a Film from a Eumig through an Elmo and you might see what I mean.

I still think that Tony needs to do the test I suggested earlier. Its only going to be a few things that might scratch and they will be the upper sprocket guide, the gate, the soundhead input guide or the film is slipping slightly through the capstan. Any problems with the guide at the last large sprocket will be on the Emulsion side of the film.

Any projector should be kept clean and all machines are subject to wear especially on the plastic parts. I think that the reason why we hear more about the Elmos and problems on them is that there are probably more of them about.

Kev.

--------------------
GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Tony Stucchio
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 625
From: New Jersey
Registered: Dec 2005

posted December 24, 2005 01:13 PM

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Perhaps I was wrong saying they were definitely base scratches. I based that on the fact that the lines were dark and not white. The scratches do seem to appear on the side that rubs the green sprocket guide.

I will perform the test that Kevin suggests -- been putting it off since it seems a bit difficult.

I agree that all projectors, including Eumigs, can scratch film. But the Eumig's are easier to maintain. I've had the Eumig since I was a kid, and other than the gate I never cleaned the rest of the film path back then. My films stayed very clean. Of course, now I clean the entire path.

Elmo's vs. Eumigs:
1200 foot capacity vs. 600ft
150 watt lamp vs. 100 watt
better film handling vs. sometimes unsteady picture with chatter
higher chance of film scratching vs. lower chance
belts vs. no belts

Neither one is perfect.

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Jan Bister
Darth 8mm

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From: Ohio, USA
Registered: Jan 2005

posted December 24, 2005 02:21 PM

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Too bad they never made super-8 slotload machines, like the 16mm Eiki/Elmo ones. I'm still puzzled over that one. [Smile]

[Smile]

--------------------
Call me Phoenix. *dusts off the ashes*

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Tony Stucchio
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 625
From: New Jersey
Registered: Dec 2005

posted January 20, 2006 06:55 PM

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With the holidays over and a general break from working on the projector, I finally got back to solving the problem.
It was the bottom sprocket guide. My solution has been to remove the spring that keeps it pressed against the sprocket. I hold it up while threading, then release, and everything works perfectly. And now films don't get scratched! Thanks a million to all who helped since I never suspected the problem would be there -- always suspected the gate.

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003

posted January 20, 2006 07:15 PM

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Tony, I need to check but I may have a spare guide knocking about in my box of spares.

Glad you have found the problem.

Kev.

--------------------
GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Jan Bister
Darth 8mm

Posts: 2629
From: Ohio, USA
Registered: Jan 2005

posted January 21, 2006 01:29 PM

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I have a number of Elmo parts machines and should also be able to locate a spare bottom sprocket guide for you. This should be a bit easier to ship within the States, instead of having Kevin have to bother with overseas post. [Smile]

[Smile]

I'm glad you located and isolated the problem [Smile]

[Smile]

but running the projector without the bottom guide pressing against the sprocket may not be such a great idea. The film could potentially jump the sprocket teeth and completely lose its lower loop at any time. Having the bottom guide doing its job gives you the security of a problem-free transport.

Anyway, if you're interested, drop me a PM and I'll see what I have around here. [Smile]

[Smile]

--------------------
Call me Phoenix. *dusts off the ashes*

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003

posted January 22, 2006 04:48 AM

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Jan, Thats good of you. Thanks. [Smile]

[Smile]

Kev.

--------------------
GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Jean-Christophe Deblock
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From: Grimbergen, Brabant, Belgium.
Registered: Mar 2007

posted April 25, 2007 03:33 PM

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Hello.
I have the same problem on my ELMO ST1200HD.
Do someone have a spare guide?
Thank's a lot.

Regards.

Jean-Christophe.

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