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Author Topic: Optical sound super 8mm history help needed
Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005


 - posted June 02, 2007 06:33 PM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hey everybody, I am asking for help as I am going to write a series of articles on the History of Optical sound super 8, so, while I have a functioning knowledge of the subject, I'm sure that there is more info needed.

This will be a three part history that will be in the "Reel Images" magazine, parts one and two and then, in part three, a (as complete as possible) list of optical sound feature releases. A potential 4th part will be advice on collecting these gems.

The info that I will need are :

1. Doug or Kevin, could you list in this post that article about the visit to the optical sound airline feature film lab, (you know the "tear-jerker")

2. ANYBODY with ANY history concerning optical sound super 8mm, (any technicians out there)

3. Anybody with any titles, please list them. ALSO, Doug or Kevin : That listing from about two years ago when you guys listed the known (at that time) optical titles, which will be added to as I find other titles.

I thank you all ahead of time for your cooperation!

--------------------
"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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John Whittle
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 791
From: Northridge, CA USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted June 02, 2007 08:47 PM      Profile for John Whittle   Email John Whittle       Edit/Delete Post 
Osi,

Find a good library (one that still has books!) and see if they have SMPTE Journals from about 1963 thru 1975. You'll have to search thru the indices, but there are several papers dealing with Super8 Optical sound, print manufacture, problems in processing, cartridge mounting prints, print stocks and other topics.

As I recall, Technicolor was big on producing Super8 optical for their projector and the initial market was educational films in cartridges. Airline prints came later and lasted into the 1980s when video took over on many airlines.

John

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Barry Attwood
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1411
From: Enfield, U.K.
Registered: Aug 2003


 - posted June 03, 2007 02:27 AM      Profile for Barry Attwood   Email Barry Attwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Osi,

The one thing I do know about most (if not all) Optical prints they were Quad printed i.e. 4 prints side by side on 35mm stock, amazing what quality they got from this, some say, slightly inferior processing method.

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Mike Peckham
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1461
From: West Sussex, UK.
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted June 03, 2007 08:40 AM      Profile for Mike Peckham   Email Mike Peckham   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Osi

Here's the quote that I posted previously of Derek Symmonds writing on optical prints in the Film For the Collector Magazine in 1998;

quote:


A few years ago I was at Rank Film Labs in Denham, having gone there to collect some work they had produced for us. I was having a chat with Roy Hubbard, the manager of the department at that time, when a gentleman entered the room. He was introduced to me and it was explained that he worked for the company that provided 8mm optical prints for the airlines. This fascinated me, and being the film fanatic that I am, I wanted to know more. I stayed and talked with him for nearly two hours, and eventually he said “next time you’re down here, give me a ring and I will come and collect you and take you round our place”. I made sure that I visited the labs the next week, and before setting out I telephoned my new found friend. He promised to come along to the labs and we would then go on to his main depot. When I left the labs, following the car in front, I was more than a little surprised to find we were heading towards the Technicolor Labs, near Heathrow Airport. We swung through the main gates, drove round the main building and ended up at the rear of the labs. There I saw a sign SUNSTRAND, and it was then that I realised that this was the company that I had come to visit.

I was led into a small office, and told that most of the prints were printed at Technicolor Labs in New York, whilst Rank Labs also provided prints of their own titles and some of the British TV material, but it was explained that the airlines preferred the material that was printed in New York since Technicolor ‘coated’ the sound tracks and this rendered much better results.

If you compare an 8mm Optical Print made in the UK against an American print, you will note that the optical track is almost pure black and white, whereas the track on a British print is dark blue. This results in the British track giving a lower level of volume and certainly more track noise, hiss and plops. Rank would never give any reason for not coating the optical tracks on 8mm prints. I hasten to add, that all 16mm prints made by the lab at the lab at that time, were coated to give optimum performances. One can only assume that in their opinion, 8mm was just not important enough for them to provide this extra service.

I was then told that a lot of the prints carried multi-tracks; the main track always being in English. But, on some prints there was another track, just on the edge of the sprocket holes, much like the balance track on a magnetic print, and this track was mostly French, German or Spanish.

I was then taken into the room where the films were checked upon return from the air craft, and where new prints were being put on to giant spools for polishing. I was astounded at the number of prints in the room – it must have been at least five or six thousand! Can you imagine standing in front of five or six thousand full length 8mm sound feature, 99% of which were never going to be offered to the collector?

When the prints came in from the various labs, they were in the same number of roles as the 16mm prints, since they had been taken from the 16mm negatives. For aircraft use they need to be on one continuous reel, so the first job was the splicing together of all the various reels. The films were then coated with a silicone polish, and then flat wound into a giant cartridge, as one continuous roll, ie; the film came form the outer edge of the large roll, went through the projector gate and sound head and wound back onto the inside of the roll. This is the reason that the films were coated with silicone, to make them very smooth and slippery, and to avoid emulsion build up and scratching. After this they were put onto projectors, the same Technicolor machines that the airlines used, each print was run, and then the prints shipped to various airlines. At one time there were twenty projectors running, checking films. These specially made machines had Xenon lamps, and the sound out put was remarkably good. Much better than the quality received through those dreadful earphones they give you on the plane!

Once the films had served their purpose, they were returned to the various dumps around the world and supposedly junked. I was at SUNSTRAND at one time when they destroyed about 500 feature films, and an official from the film industry stood there whilst they put an axe through every print. ( I don’t think I have ever got over the shock).

It seems that some prints have got out from various dumps, and have found their way onto the market. I must say that a few years ago I did persuade Warner Bros and Columbia to sell us a few prints, which they did. I think we had about ten titles in all and about fifty copies of each. But sadly, the airlines soon stopped using 8mm, when cheaper, video copies became available, and as far as I am aware, no 8mm prints are now made for airline use. If you are offered an ex-airline print, make sure they are not turning pink, as most of them were printed at the time when Eastman stock was suspect.

Mike

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Auntie Em must have stopped wondering where I am by now...

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Mark Williams
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 846
From: West Sussex
Registered: Mar 2007


 - posted June 03, 2007 11:20 AM      Profile for Mark Williams   Email Mark Williams   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi-Osi,
Here's a list of optical airline prints known to me,some I have even owned,sorry the lists not definitive but I hope it helps..

THE GOLDEN SEAL-STEVE RAILSBACK-FAMILY MOVIE
A FISH CALLED WANDA-CUT
FORCE 10 FROM NAVARONE-CUT
THE BURGLERS-JEAN PAUL BELMONDO/OMAR SHARIF
CLARA'S HEART-WHOOPI GOLDBERG/RAY LIOTA
GREYSTOKE-THE LEGEND OF TARZAN-CUT
THE 39 STEPS-1979-RANK UK PRINT
SHOUT AT THE DEVIL-LTBX-CUT
ISLAND OF DR MOREAU-BURT LANCASTER
MIDNIGHT EXPRESS
SUPERMAN-THE MOVIE-SCOPE
FINDERS KEEPERS
A MAN,A WOMAN AND A BANK-DONALD SUTHERLAND
THE FRENCH LIEUTENANTS WOMAN
STARBIRD & SWEET WILLIAM-FAMILY MOVIE
CONDUCT UNBECOMING
MATILDA-ROBERT MITCHUM
MEMORIES OF ME-BILLY CRYSTAL,SEAN CONNERY CAMEO
NOTHING PERSONAL-DONALD SUTHERLAND/SUSANNE SOMMERS
THE EARTHLING-WILLIAM HOLDERN
PAT GARRETT & BILLY THE KID-CUT
THE EIGER SANCTION-CLINT EASTWOOD-LTBX & MAGNETIC SOUND!
CHAMPIONS-JOHN HURT
THE BOUNTY-MEL GIBSON
ROCKY 3
LETHAL WEAPON-CUT
PALE RIDER-CLINT EASTWOOD
CITY HEAT-CLINT EASTWOOD
SUDDEN IMPACT-CLINT EASTWOOD
MAGNUM FORCE-CLINT EASTWOOD
NADIA-TV MOVIE ABOUT GYMNAST
GORKY PARK-LEE MARVIN
FUTUREWORLD-PETER FONDA
HOOPER-BURT REYNOLDS WITH JAPANESE SUB-TITLES!
BROADWAY DANNY ROSE-WOODY ALLEN
PURPLE ROSE OF CAIRO-DIRECTED BY WOODY ALLEN
HAMBONE & HILLIE-LILLIAN GISH,OJ SIMPSON!
LONE WOLF MCQUADE-CHUCK NORRIS/DAVID CARRADINE
MAN FROM SNOWY RIVER-KIRK DOUGLAS
NEVER CRY WOLF-BRIAN DENNEHY
TENDER MERCIES-ROBERT DUVALL
UNDER FIRE-NICK NOLTE
TERMS OF ENDEARMENT-JACK NICHOLSON

Cheers Mark

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Del Phillipson
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Derbyshire, England
Registered: Dec 2005


 - posted June 03, 2007 12:46 PM      Profile for Del Phillipson   Email Del Phillipson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
there's a few must have's on that list [Wink]

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Jean-Christophe Deblock
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Grimbergen, Brabant, Belgium.
Registered: Mar 2007


 - posted June 03, 2007 03:04 PM      Profile for Jean-Christophe Deblock     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
And not "AIRPORT"...

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005


 - posted June 03, 2007 03:36 PM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Screw Airport! Like da man says, there's a lot of titles there worth having! A number I haven't seen!

--------------------
"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Mark Williams
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 846
From: West Sussex
Registered: Mar 2007


 - posted June 03, 2007 04:32 PM      Profile for Mark Williams   Email Mark Williams   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
And I bet thats just the tip of the icebeg too!!!

Has anyone else got anymore titles to add to Osi's list??

I also forgot to mention LITTLE SHOP OF HORRORS with Steve Martin.

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Keith Ashfield
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 997
From: U.K.
Registered: Dec 2006


 - posted June 03, 2007 06:02 PM      Profile for Keith Ashfield     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A few more to add to the list -

THE FOUR SEASONS - ALAN ALDA
REMO WILLIAMS - FRED WARD
FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE - SEAN CONNERY
TWO OF A KIND - JOHN TRAVOLTA
FINDERS KEEPERS - CLIFF RICHARD
RISING DAMP - LEONARD ROSSITER
A MAN CALLED HORSE - RICHARD HARRIS
HEDDA - GLENDA JACKSON

Regards,
Keith

--------------------
"We'll find 'em in the end, I promise you. We'll find 'em. Just as sure as a turnin' of the earth".

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Michael De Angelis
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1261
From: USA
Registered: Jul 2003


 - posted June 03, 2007 07:28 PM      Profile for Michael De Angelis   Email Michael De Angelis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Space Balls,
and Fast Break.

--------------------
Isn't it great that we can all communicate about this great
hobby that we love!

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Joerg Polzfusz
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 815
From: Berlin, Germany, Europe, Earth, Solar System
Registered: Apr 2006


 - posted June 04, 2007 04:58 AM      Profile for Joerg Polzfusz   Author's Homepage   Email Joerg Polzfusz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi,

Ullstein/Revue released a lot of super8-prints with optical soundtracks (mainly in German in Germany/Austria/Switzerland, but also in French/English in other parts of Europe). This mainly included some German fairy-tales, but also some episodes of "Mit Schirm, Charme und Melone" (Original title: "The Avengers").

You shouldn't forget the FUJICA ZS400 (Single-8-camera with optical sound recording) in your article:
http://muddy8mm.howto.cx/single8/single8_e/ZS400_e.htm

Jörg

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005


 - posted June 06, 2007 05:32 PM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I just want to thank everybody who has helped out with this post so far!! The list of known Super 8 optical titles, (this doesn't even include cartoon shorts or ads), is now up to a known 84! I'm sure the number will continue to climb. I believe that I personally have 35.

Note : I don't know who posted it, but could somebody include
a picture of the optical sound projectors used by the airlines?
These were cartridge loading players. I know that a picture of one of these was shown on this forum before.

--------------------
"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Barry Attwood
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1411
From: Enfield, U.K.
Registered: Aug 2003


 - posted June 07, 2007 02:47 AM      Profile for Barry Attwood   Email Barry Attwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Osi,

I've had prints of the following too:

BACK TO THE FUTURE (with Japanese Sub-Titles)
BATMAN
STAR TREK 3: THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK
DEATH ON THE NILE
SPLASH
THE HIGH ROAD TO CHINA
CARRY ON DOCTOR

These are just a few more, I'll try and update these when I can think of more.

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Mark Williams
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 846
From: West Sussex
Registered: Mar 2007


 - posted June 07, 2007 03:39 AM      Profile for Mark Williams   Email Mark Williams   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
WOW!!!

There's a few great titles there Barry,have you ever had a copy of BATMAN?
I have also seen quite a few optical sound making of 200fts such as MAGNUM FORCE,OUTLAW JOSIE WALES etc.

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Douglas Meltzer
Moderator

Posts: 4554
From: New York, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted June 07, 2007 10:42 AM      Profile for Douglas Meltzer   Email Douglas Meltzer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The earliest thread that contained a list (from back in January 2004) can be found here .
However, an optical title I have that is rarely mentioned on any list is one of my favorite pirate films, "Nate and Hayes" (aka "Savage Islands"), a fun little flick with Tommy Lee Jones and Michael O'Keefe.

Doug

--------------------
I think there's room for just one more film.....

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005


 - posted June 07, 2007 12:05 PM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
iNTERRESTING ONE ON "Batman". I have "Hooper" (Burt Reynolds) and it is subtitled (japanese), and it's okay to watch. The only time the subtitles are annoying is in dark scenes, so Batman might be a little more annoying, however, the action scenes do not have a lot of talk.

The list is growing!! It is now up to a whopping 138 titles!!

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Stewart McSporran
Master Film Handler

Posts: 272
From: Glasgow, Scotland
Registered: Nov 2003


 - posted June 07, 2007 04:09 PM      Profile for Stewart McSporran   Email Stewart McSporran   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I also have The Internecine Project.

[Edit]
Oops, just noticed this is on the list Douglas linked to. Still, it's a pretty good film - even if it is pretty badly faded.

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005


 - posted June 07, 2007 05:14 PM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have that one as well Stewart. Mine has a slight fade, which I notice gets better as the film goes on.

Besides, I just love that "shower scene", which I personally think is the best shower scene since "Psycho". Not as good as Psycho, mind you, but pretty darn good.

"Internicine Project" is a good example of the suspenseful film that has a nice slow movement to the story, and even though you know that all of them are going to be bumped off, (including the main "bumpee"), you look forward to seeing each of them unknowingly being killed off by each other. It's one of those films that makes the audience a part of the action, so to speak.

--------------------
"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Barry Attwood
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1411
From: Enfield, U.K.
Registered: Aug 2003


 - posted June 08, 2007 01:46 AM      Profile for Barry Attwood   Email Barry Attwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Osi,

BATMAN did not have sub-titles, only BTTF did. I also had a print of THE HUNT FOR RED OCTOBER, although a fair print there was no attempt of panning and scanning, so the picture was set dead middle of the scope frame, unusual though!

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Reb Tanner
Junior
Posts: 4
From: Holloway, London, UK
Registered: Jul 2006


 - posted June 08, 2007 05:36 AM      Profile for Reb Tanner   Author's Homepage   Email Reb Tanner   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
DR NO
YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE
LETHAL WEAPON
PSYCH ROCK PROMO CLIPS 200'
VARIOUS EDUCATIONAL DOCUMENTARIES

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