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Author Topic: A Curiosity about "Black Sunday"
Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005


 - posted January 25, 2010 06:13 PM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There is a "supposed" feature print of Black Sunday on ebay right now. It has nine days left as of this posting. there is only one shot and that is of the boxes. The seller states that it is a 4X400ft feature. That alone tells me that it is not a full feature, but the boxes seem to make it look like this seller just got ahold of a bunch of parts and not a full 4X400ft edited feature, as the first box, on top, says "400ft selected scenes edition". I also notice that the top box and the third box have the same cover illustration on top. Curious.

Now, did marketing just use the same boxes for the 400ft selected scene version and use them to house the edited versions, or is this guy selling a fraud? Could anybody who owns this spoecific title comment? Sorry, I don't have the knowledge to create a link.

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5468
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 25, 2010 06:22 PM      Profile for Winbert Hutahaean     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Osi,

According to IMDB: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0075765/

Black Sunday is 143 minutes.

There is no any possibility that this film will fit into 4 reels. The maximum of 400' reel is 20 minutes, making 4 reels to become 80 minutes.

You see what I mean. [Wink]

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Winbert

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Lance Alspaugh
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 152
From: Los Angeles, Ca
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 25, 2010 06:50 PM      Profile for Lance Alspaugh   Email Lance Alspaugh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This appears to be the 3 part Abridged along with the 400 ft digest that the seller is offering, not the full feature indeed.

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Bill Phelps
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: USA
Registered: Jan 2009


 - posted January 25, 2010 07:04 PM      Profile for Bill Phelps     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm pretty sure the 3 X 400' version box covers are three seperate pictures.

Bill

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Douglas Meltzer
Moderator

Posts: 4554
From: New York, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 25, 2010 07:24 PM      Profile for Douglas Meltzer   Email Douglas Meltzer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Osi,

Lance and Bill are correct. The box numbers in the photo are 410-1, 410-2 and 410-3, which is the three part edition. The top box is 410-4, which is the 400' selected scene edition. Marketing use the same artwork for 410-2 and 410-4.
The 3x400' is very well edited. "Black Sunday" is one of my favorite films and I have all the versions.

Winbert,

Using thinner stock Marketing was able to release the 110 minute "Grease" on 4 400' reels.

Doug

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I think there's room for just one more film.....

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Osi Osgood
Film God

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From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005


 - posted January 25, 2010 07:40 PM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I figured it was too good to be true. How has the color held up on your seperate versions of the film Doug?

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Douglas Meltzer
Moderator

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From: New York, NY, USA
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 - posted January 25, 2010 08:01 PM      Profile for Douglas Meltzer   Email Douglas Meltzer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I haven't looked at the 200' or 400' editions lately, but the feature's color is good. The 3x400' has the best color.

Doug

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I think there's room for just one more film.....

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

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From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 25, 2010 08:30 PM      Profile for Winbert Hutahaean     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Using thinner stock Marketing was able to release the 110 minute "Grease" on 4 400' reels
Yes certainly Doug, as you say, Grease is ONLY 110 minutes, while Black Sunday is 143 minutes. There is 33 minutes different, making 4 reels will not be possible in any type of stock. It has to be 35 minutes for every 400' reel (which is quite impossible) to get 140 minutes in 4 reels, and we still get short of 3 minutes. [Wink]

quote:
How has the color held up on your seperate versions of the film
Osi, having seen the box type, that is from early Marketing films (NY based). If you have "Raiders" you know how mostly the Marketing box is.

But the early one is different, it is more like a book keeper. The box is slightly bigger than the later ones. I have one like this (Godfather) and the color is totally washed out. I believe the early releases were on Eastman instead of Kodak SP that mostly later Marketing releases.

So beware.

cheers,

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Winbert

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Douglas Meltzer
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From: New York, NY, USA
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 - posted January 25, 2010 08:53 PM      Profile for Douglas Meltzer   Email Douglas Meltzer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Winbert,

You are absolutely right. I was pointing out that it is possible to get more than 20 minutes on a reel. When I first got the Marketing "Grease" I thought I had been ripped off because of the 4 reels. It also came in a Marketing feature box that was big enough to hold 8 reels.

Doug

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I think there's room for just one more film.....

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Greg Marshall
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 612
From: Nashville, TN USA
Registered: Sep 2008


 - posted January 25, 2010 09:41 PM      Profile for Greg Marshall   Email Greg Marshall   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I contacted this seller yesterday about how the color is holding up... he states he does not have a projector, but when he ran the print 5 YEARS ago, "it seemed fine then, if I remember".

I wrote him back and suggested he roll out the leader and look at the frames up to a light source, as color can change dramatically in 5 years.

I have not heard from him.

So, I've written him again, and brought to his attention about the running time of the feature, and what seems to be represented in his picture does not reflect a full feature. I suggested that he end the auction and relist, as he's misrepresenting the item. (Thanks, Doug.... I did not look that closely at the artwork, and I'm interested in having this film.)

So maybe he'll do the right thing and do this. I know I'd be P-O'd, if I thought I was buying the full feature, and this showed up.

Oh, and I have the thin-based Grease print as well.... From running this film back in the 78, and 79, I remember specifically the end of each theatrical reel. A full theatrical reel can hold 2000 feet of film, and this relates to 19-20 minutes. The first reel of the polyprint of Grease has the first two theatrical reels on that one reel. With an average running time of, usually 17-18 minutes per theatrical reel, it is possible to have 34-36 minutes (maybe a little more) on a full polyreel. So, I'm thinking four FULL reels could probably accomodate the running time of 143 minutes of Black Sunday, if it were on the poly stock. (Doug, does that sound right?) BUT, this is not the full feature this guy is selling, looking closer at the artwork.

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5468
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 25, 2010 10:05 PM      Profile for Winbert Hutahaean     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
it is possible to have 34-36 minutes (maybe a little more) on a full polyreel.
Greg, to be honest, I don't really get what you are talking...

Are you saying that 7 inch reels can accommodate 35 minutes of super 8mm thins stock ??

35 minutes is 700 feet film and.... fit in 7 inch reel??? [Confused]

I fully understand that poly is a thin stock but as far a I knew it is 30% thinner than acetate. But you are talking much-much thinner. What stock is that?

--------------------
Winbert

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Greg Marshall
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Nashville, TN USA
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 - posted January 25, 2010 10:14 PM      Profile for Greg Marshall   Email Greg Marshall   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Winbert.... yes, it is true. Marketing used this very thin stock for the 4-reel/full-length Grease. It is of the nearly non-breakable stock, which I'm calling polyester... could be called Mylar. (Doug, is this correct terminology here, for this thin stock that Marketing used?)

I was surprised too, Winbert. When I collected back in the '90's, I bought a print of Grease.... 4 reels comes in a metal can, and just like Doug, I thought I had been ripped off, with 2 reels missing (Grease was 6 reels, theatrically). So I ran the print, and noticed after twenty minutes had passed, that I had quite a bit of film left on the reel, and that took it on through the theatrical reel 2. So, the whole feature was there, just less reels than normal. Soon after that, I learned this was a much thinner stock, and I'm guessing a cost-saving effort for Marketing, after all, this was the very-early 80's.... VHS had already surfaced, and I'm sure they saw the writing on the wall with the profits.

Sorry I wasn't clear, Winbert... hope this helps.

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

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From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
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 - posted January 25, 2010 10:32 PM      Profile for Winbert Hutahaean     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
I was surprised too, Winbert. When I collected back in the '90's, I bought a print of Grease.... 4 reels
Greg, as Doug's case above, you are talking Grease, which is 110 minutes duration. While this topic is about Black Sunday with 143 duration.

So I fully understand (and I believe you too) that 4 * 7" reels can accommodate an uncut Grease. But there is no any chance for 143 minutes of film (an uncut Black Sunday) in 4 * 7" reels, since this needs one reel to accommodate 700" film which is impossible. Unless you are talking a much thinner stock from the poly stock we know so far. Is there? [Confused]

thanks

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Winbert

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Greg Marshall
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 612
From: Nashville, TN USA
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 - posted January 25, 2010 10:40 PM      Profile for Greg Marshall   Email Greg Marshall   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Doug, how is your print made up? 7 or 8 reels, or did they use the thin stock? Chime in on this poly stock... is it thinner than other polyester stock?

2-3 of the 4 Grease reels weren't all the way full... one was, to the edge. You may not get the entire 143 of Black Sunday on 4 reels, but close. Easily, a theatrical reel can run up to 20 minutes. I'd need to time the first polyreel of Grease, but feel quite sure, it's around 35-36 minutes. For Black Sunday, they'd be full reels for sure, but not impossible.

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5468
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 25, 2010 11:18 PM      Profile for Winbert Hutahaean     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
but feel quite sure, it's around 35-36 minutes
At least so far I find in this forum and also from this site it says:

quote:
Polyester film is not as vulnerable to vinegar syndrome as acetate film and it's not as easily scratched. Plus it's 1/3 thinner, meaning you get more feet per movie reel.
So it is around 30% to 33 1/3% (to be exact) thinner than acetate stock. So for 400' (acetate standard) reel, it can accommodate max. 533 feet or eqv. to 26 - 28 minutes of polyester films. For me, 35 minutes in 7 inch reel is the way too far, no matter what stock is that.

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Winbert

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Greg Marshall
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Nashville, TN USA
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 - posted January 25, 2010 11:44 PM      Profile for Greg Marshall   Email Greg Marshall   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hmmm, it must be a thinner stock then, as I know that first reel of Grease runs 35-36 minutes.

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005


 - posted January 26, 2010 01:07 PM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
At any rate, this Black Sunday print on the ebay auction has been verified as a 3X400ft version with the addition of the 400ft selected scene addition. It would be nice if the 400ft version had a scene or two not in the 3X400ft, but that is kind of doubtful.

On a side note, I now wonder how long of a running time my Raiders of the Lost Fart (haha) is, as it always seemed like it was longer than your average digest? It is a nice fairly full reel.

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Chip Gelmini
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1733
From: Brooksville, FL
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 - posted January 26, 2010 01:27 PM      Profile for Chip Gelmini     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Would the thickness of polyester stock have anything to do with color fade? If was thinner, would it fade sooner or hold the colors longer? Or does it really make a difference at all?

These comments on the first print of Grease full length got me wondering.

-cg-

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