|
Author
|
Topic: My First Vinegar
|
Mathew James
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 740
From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Dec 2014
|
posted July 01, 2017 08:40 AM
Well, it obviously was bound to happen one day...yes, shattered my nearly 25 years of ebay perfection without any glitches!!!
Yes, this is my very first vinegar smelling film i bought and BOY is it a WHOPPER!
Short Story: So I bought a print from ebay a couple weeks ago. Print listed in working acceptable condition. No warning of vinegar, no as-is, nothing. Seller had 100% like myself. Very safe bet due to past experiences. It is a super 8 niles our gang print.
The post came yesterday when we were out. I was aggravated because this is a long weekend here(meaning no chance to get until Tuesday) and they always seem to deliver the very second i step out the door and never come when i am mostly home.
Anyways, we called the post to see if we can pick it up which they said we could after 7pm last night. My wife and daughter had some other errands so they picked it up en route.
My wife commented to me in hindsight that when they picked up the package, my daughter said to her " Weird, something really smells like vinegar...what did daddy buy? They had no idea it was a film in package, nor did i since i order lots of things...
Anyways, wowzers was it smelly, and yes, vinegar is a VERY good description of the overall smell, not pure vinegar but definitely vinegary.
The weird thing is that this is a super 8 film, which i thought were mostly Polyester and therefore not acetate degradation.
However, i did the 'rip' test on the end piece and it tore easily almost like tough paper. I also tried the shinning light test which my wife and i argued about the results so we are not sure we are qualified to determine gold hue or black ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Regardless, the print has been on the porch all night- way too pungent for inside. I am trying to soak in baking soda since that is all i got currently. Any other thoughts are appreciated! The box is also very smelly even after all night. Not sure how to fix this and may just scrap.
Oh yes, finally...I did immediately contact the seller and they refunded my transaction immediately, so i have nothing bad to report other than the unfortunate circumstance of the incident.
*Did Niles make acetate films for super 8?
--------------------
--
Cheers,
Matt 📽
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Mathew James
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 740
From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Dec 2014
|
posted July 08, 2017 10:35 AM
Hi Bill,
By soaking, i actually meant soaking , which i realize is not a solution, but this thing was going in the trash/garbage otherwise, it was so pungent.
We made a baking soda solution in warm water to disolve the baking the best one can, and then one cooled we put it in overnight loosely. It was a nightmare what I did. It was more of an experiment i wouldn't try on just any film. I actually unwound 400', slowly, wrapping it carefully in a big plastic bowl(12"diameter maybe? 10"deep). After it was unwound(a good 45 minutes later), we put the solution in the bowl and made sure it was all submerged. Left it in the garage overnight, and each day for a couple days would rise the film off, and then did again. It reduced the smell greatly, but not completely. Enough that i could try watching it to see the overall damage. I had to put a leader on as it wouldn't feed through the elmo gate, and then it was watchable. Sound was decent. Film came in and out of focus, and i could see some parts where the film may be deteriorating to cause the smell.
I am glad you asked about this, bcause I would love to know what you and others think how to apply the baking soda would work best. I do not believe wiping it would have reduced this pugent of a reel.
btw- for the box, we used dryer sheets 'Gain' brand to be precise. Now the boxes smell like gainy vinegar ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
ps: the idea regarding baking soda came from this thread here: http://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=010024# 000000
However, in reading it again, the word 'soak' is never instructed, so i am curious what shorty did!
--------------------
--
Cheers,
Matt 📽
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bill Brandenstein
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1632
From: California
Registered: Aug 2007
|
posted July 09, 2017 10:13 PM
I think Shorty just opened the box and sealed the two together. Shorty, please confirm!
I'm REALLY interested in this because you're saying the smell WAS reduced. That's really, really significant.
The trick in wetting film is getting it dry without scratching it while soft or leaving blotches once dried. Congrats, Mathew, if you've done that with this title, because that's easily half the battle.
Wet-soaking VS prints in a mildly base solution seems like a valid experiment in neutralizing vinegar, but NOBODY is doing this, or if they are, not reporting the result. The trick is whether you can get the pH of the print to "rise" without dissolving either the image or film base!
Mathew, do you have any way of measuring the pH of the solution you made by dissolving the baking soda? And is there the possibility that the results would improve if you soaked it longer?
Finally, I'm sure you know that the focus issues are typical of the warping that VS brings about, and reverse and/or flipped winding, as well as a full immersion in FilmRenew for a few months, can often help flatten the deteriorated portions.
| IP: Logged
|
|
Burton Sundquist
Master Film Handler
Posts: 318
From: Burnaby, B.C. Canada
Registered: Feb 2017
|
posted July 10, 2017 01:15 AM
Hi Mathew,
I share the same situation. Months ago I found a website offering "sealed" super 8 films and despite having read the warnings from our most experienced members, I went ahead and ordered one. A 400' digest that seemed reasonably priced for a sealed film. When it arrived, with the wrap still on, everything was fine... Until I opened the package. Where you still standing? When I regained my sences I had the thing under control in A ziploc bag in the trunk of my car... I wanted to find a place to bury it.
...After reason and further advice kicked in, I DID not dispose of the film. The best thing to do, If the film is worth it, is to hold your nose, clean it with Filmguard and then reseal it in a freezer bag and put it in your freezer.Stops the film from decaying further. I was also reasured that VS cannot cross contaminate other films, rather the VS smell is what permiates other films...
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mathew James
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 740
From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Dec 2014
|
posted July 10, 2017 03:27 PM
Thanx for the information gents!
Well, i documented a couple pictures that i meant to post but didn't get a chance until now...these were meant to be humorous as the whole endevour was to ultimately salvage the film for viewing.
Here is the bucket of Garter Snakes,..em..I mean, of film, soaking in a bath of Baking Soda and water.. This was soaked and each day i rinsed the film with the hose water thoroughly and refilled with the baking soda bath...for 3 days. I felt it was reduced enough to dry off carefully using a norwex microfibre cloth microfibre i used here and we wound it back up slowly to the cleaned reel.
And since we had a nice rain that day, i decided to place the stinky reel in a puddle for the day
*Note:I do not recommend these techniques for amateurs...these are highly professional maneuvers that take extreme skill to pull off successfully.
Bill, Unfortunately i am not sure of the PH. I spoke to my wife to how much baking soda she put in and she said 'I don't know, quarter box? See, we are real professionals here.
I do believe this reduced the smell greatly. It has been in the house now for a couple days and noone seems to have noticed, which is good.
Bernard, thanx also for letting me know that "VS cannot cross contaminate other films, rather the VS smell is what permeates other films". This is valuable info for me to know and makes me feel more comfortable! Dominique, maybe you can move yours out of the bathroom?
--------------------
--
Cheers,
Matt 📽
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Michael De Angelis
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1261
From: USA
Registered: Jul 2003
|
posted July 10, 2017 05:02 PM
The film appears to be unsalvageable and your only recourse is to soak the film in a can of either Vitafilm or Film Renew, which does not guarantee any rejuvenation. These chemicals tend to fill the pin holes in the film if the film has a light smell. One collector told me that he uses Pledge furniture polish, which I would not recommend or use.
I did soak my second reel of a 16mm Laurel and Hardy Way Out West print in Film Renew and it was corrected because the vs smell was light and it never returned. The reel was stored in a metal can and reel.
Untrue information: quote:
I was also reasured that VS cannot cross contaminate other films,
.....rather the VS smell is what permiates other films..
The breakdown in the Vinegar Syndrome stages is auto catalytic meaning that the vinegar odor will pass through the air and adversely contaminate your film collection, otherwise you are wasting your time and the film needs to be chucked to the garbage can.
Baking soda is experimental and that the smell was reduced does not and is not a cure.
The Vinegar Syndrome is the base separating from the emulsion and the decomposition process goes through multiple stages.
Temperature and humidity, vac sealing, and also incorrect film processing can adversely affect a film to vinegar and my guess is that the film was not processed properly.
TV stations used to scratch coat films, which sealed the film on the base and emulsion, however, the scratch coating would seal the film and making the film unable to breathe and then the vinegar breakdown would decompose the film.
I had beautiful 16mm Honeymooners episodes that had 35mm quality that were scratch coated and needed to be chucked, because cool air could not save them from decomposition.
I once processed an 8mm sound home movie cartridge and when the film was returned it reeked of vinegar, proving that the film was poorly processed.
Some collectors swear by keeping their films in cardboard boxes in order to allow the films to "gas out" and breathe instead of plastic or metal can storage which traps the gas will prevent vinegar syndrome. But I have never experienced this problem.
Rusted metal reels may also attribute to vs.
--------------------
Isn't it great that we can all communicate about this great
hobby that we love!
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic
