This is topic CineSea 13 April 30th! in forum 8mm Forum at 8mm Forum.
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Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on February 07, 2016, 12:48 PM:
Here's a reminder that our 13th CineSea Film Collectors Show is coming up. The popular Friday Night Feature screening will take place on April 29th and the full day/night event is on Saturday, April 30th.
CineSea is a weekend full of film. A weekend packed with talking about, watching, buying, selling, trading film and film equipment in gauges from 8mm to 35mm. The Saturday show starts at 10 AM and the sound of multiple projectors running will not stop till we head out for an early group dinner. Upon our return, the Saturday night screening starts (Super 8mm & 16mm….bring what you'd like to show, just keep it under 20 minutes please!) and last time we wrapped after 2 AM.
If you have film or equipment to sell, 6 foot dealer tables are available for $20. You can rent as many as you like. Lou Franchetti will be there with stacks of 8mm and 16mm. To reserve a table you can email/PM me or Lou. We approached our table limit at CineSea 12, so please reserve soon.
We will soon be choosing the feature for the Friday night screening. if you're coming to the convention and have a print you'd like to show, please list the title/format here and we'll have an online survey to pick the winner. The previous feature was Shorty Caruso's Super 8mm print of Abbott & Costello Meet Frankenstein. It looked great on the big screen!
A huge plus is our location. We have a beautiful beach right across the street. You can stroll along the boardwak and the seaside amusement park Mariner's Pier will be open on Saturday from noon till 10 PM.
The show gets better every time, and I have to thank John Black and Shorty Caruso, who started CineSea with the idea that the film collector deserves an affordable show to promote camaraderie and to keep this hobby going!
Please make your reservations soon at:
The Ocean Holiday Resort
6501 Ocean Avenue
Wildwood Crest, NJ 08260
609-729-2900 (mention "Film Show" to receive special rate of $65.00 per room)
Reserve early to get Oceanfront rooms with private balconies!
CineSea 13 details:
April 29th, Friday Evening: Time TBA
Early dinner, Friday Night Feature Screening
April 30th, Saturday
Hours: 10 AM – 5:30 PM, dinner break, continuous screenings late into the night.
Admission: $5.00, free to those who are staying at the Ocean Holiday.
From North; Garden State Parkway to Exit 4, follow Rio Grande Ave to end. Right on Ocean Ave. Follow to Ocean Holiday on left 6501 Ocean Ave. From West and South;Rt 76 (east) or Rt 95 (north) to Walt Whitman Bridge. Follow Rt. 42 to Atlantic City Expressway. Take Exit 7 (Garden St Parkway South) Follow same as north.
Claus Harding's pictures from CineSea 12
Todd Tuckey's CineSea 12 YouTube video
Claus' pictures from CineSea 11 & CineSea X
CineSea 9, CineSea 9 (2). There's also the CineSea 6 Video, and Claus' CineSea 5 trailer.
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on February 07, 2016, 02:04 PM:
Now you're talking!
This is kind of a cruddy time of the year: we are working on our third snow storm and the snow on the ground is getting kind of gray...
It's good to have CineSea to look forward to!
-something other than a snow shovel to prop you up for the next few weeks!
We always try to encourage new people to join in. It's very easy to fit in here: if you speak film and you walk into that room, you can be just as much a part of the gang as somebody who's been there every time from the first.
Yet they say half of life is just showing up!
Posted by Joe Caruso (Member # 11) on February 07, 2016, 04:53 PM:
I encourage and invite all our film aficionados, both here and abroad - We could all learn so much about our respective shows from Blackpool and world-wide, while basking in the glow of motion pictures - Please join us - Cheers from Shorty
Posted by Jason Smith (Member # 5055) on February 07, 2016, 05:44 PM:
I`m going to try and make it from Japan for this event. If anyone has any film/equipment they want to get from Japan let me know.
Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on February 07, 2016, 05:59 PM:
That's fantastic, Jason !
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on February 07, 2016, 06:33 PM:
Our reigning Distance Champion is Paul Oscar who attended from Iceland...twice!
Jason, you stand to take the title!
Guy Taylor deserves eternal Honorable Mention for driving from Texas. He enjoys the trip, which makes CineSea either the cake or the icing!
Posted by Jack Cleveland (Member # 4485) on February 07, 2016, 07:57 PM:
Can hardly wait!
Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on February 07, 2016, 10:08 PM:
Any Godzilla with good color on Super 8 you can bring? Or Ultraman, Kamen Rider, you know..Kaiju stuff!
So If can make it this time...fingers crossed...might be in Hawaii-or Vegas....and I had to choose a day, hows Friday? or would showing up Saturday at 3pm be better?
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on February 07, 2016, 10:26 PM:
Friday is good, but it's mainly Friday Dinner and the Friday Night Feature, so it's a short day, and late. Early in the day is still nice, but it's quiet while most are still arriving.
Saturday runs all the way from Breakfast until two or three are (just barely) standing around a projector watching the last reel end, often past 1:00AM!
After 3 on Saturday you get a couple of hours of the convention, Saturday Dinner and the Saturday night film show.
-not bad, really...
Posted by Joe Caruso (Member # 11) on February 08, 2016, 09:04 AM:
Sunday is still active for a while, even though we are wrapping, films can still be seen, deals made and laughter heard throughout - Shorty
Posted by Evan Samaras (Member # 5070) on February 08, 2016, 10:52 AM:
I can't wait! My first convention, and I hope to be there Friday through Sunday
Posted by Guy Taylor, Jr. (Member # 786) on February 08, 2016, 12:50 PM:
I am going to try to make the one in October later this year. For those of you on the fence, attend! It is so much fun.
Posted by Louis Franchetti (Member # 2035) on February 08, 2016, 01:44 PM:
Glad to see there is going to be some new faces everyone's welcome you will have a great time and hope to see you soon.
Posted by Jason Smith (Member # 5055) on February 08, 2016, 04:57 PM:
quote:Godzilla or any Kaiju related films are hard to find but I"ll see what I can find in the next two months. I think I can find Ultraman and Kamen Rider on 8mm.
Any Godzilla with good color on Super 8 you can bring? Or Ultraman, Kamen Rider, you know..Kaiju stuff!
I'm looking forward to this event!
Posted by Joe Vannicola (Member # 4156) on February 08, 2016, 06:25 PM:
Be there or be square.
Posted by Gary Crawford (Member # 67) on February 10, 2016, 07:01 AM:
Cinesea meetings are my favorite weekends of the year. But Evan, you should know this is not exactly a convention. Not like the Columbus Cinevent or any of the monster conventions. It's more like a gathering of friends with similar interests. There is a LOT of buying, selling swapping and screening of films...lots of talk about machines and collecting..etc.
There's no schedule of films that will be screened...no separate screening room.....actually....no room at all. It's a charming venue....a parking lot/loading dock area with one side open to the beach ...so bring a jacket. It can be a little cool and breezy....but all around this "room" are collectors at their sales tables(you can have a sales table of your own for only $20 dollars) ...piles of films ...7 to 9 projectors going at once. A happy cacophony of talk, film soundtracks, projector mechanisms. On Saturday evening we all stop and go out to eat and then come back to watch films on the big screen that Doug brings...a mix of 16mm and Super 8....and that goes until 1 or 2am. Sunday, some go to breakfast at the delightful 50's style diner just a block and a half away. Then some frantic sales and swaps and packing up with sad goodbyes until the next Cinesea six months in the future. Usually there are about 20 or 25 collectors plus sometimes family members.
I come early..on Thursday afternoon...to enjoy walks along the Oceanside boardwalk.
The hotel people, including the owner, make us welcome. These rooms are mostly suites with full size kitchens..for only 65 dollars a night.
All together, a charming weekend that feels like it's only been a few hours. Can't beat it if you are into film collecting. No videos...no dvd's....just piles of acetate, polyester and the occasional smell of vinegar.
If you have interesting films to share..especially shorts...you should bring them to run on our Saturday evening marathon screening. If you want to sell films, you can either get a table or just do as I did the first time I came--bring a list and a car trunk full of films.
Posted by Joe Caruso (Member # 11) on February 10, 2016, 09:18 AM:
Importantly also, you will all initiate strong-bonded friendships forever - If they put up with me, they will with anyone - Shorty
Posted by Douglas Warren (Member # 1047) on February 10, 2016, 06:11 PM:
I would love to attend one someday but Ohio is a bit of a clip from NJ. Are there any similar events held here? I live near Cincinnati.I'm more active now as I'm focusing on 16 mm films and gear.
Posted by Evan Samaras (Member # 5070) on February 11, 2016, 03:01 PM:
Thanks for the heads up Gary!
This actually sounds much better than a monster convention (although those also sound like a lot of fun)
I'm only beginning my collection so maybe I can hunt down a few titles in Super 8 or 16 I am hoping to find, as well as a nice GS1200 minus the killer shipping prices. Only time will tell =)
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on February 11, 2016, 03:22 PM:
There are always a lot of films there. I don't think I've ever bought every film that I liked. (Save some for next time!)
Equipment?...some...although I've never seen a GS for sale at CineSea. (There are usually a few on duty, though...)
This is a very informal, friendly event. It is comfortable clothes, interesting conversation and absolutely nobody sitting at a table trying to plaster a name tag on your shirt. (Do introduce yourself!)
There's aspects of it beyond the room with all the films and projectors. We go out to eat usually two breakfasts and two dinners. It gives people a chance to break bread and get to know each other.
-makes for interesting interactions too. One time about 4 years back we were sitting at this nice seafood place and the other table broke into this heated discussion of which 16mm machine is the best.
What was wonderful about it was looking at the expressions on the rest of the people at the restaurant!
(I think the word is "bemused"!)
Something else nice is having the beach literally a couple of hundred feet from the gathering. I never get all the way through the weekend without taking a walk down to the Atlantic.
Wildwood itself is usually in the middle of some special weekend or other. So you might arrive in the middle of a marching band festival or 50s or 60s weekend. The place is usually crawling with classic cars too. It's worth taking some time up the boardwalk to see what's up.
Something nobody has ever mentioned is the sound. We have some "soundies" among us and here is some pretty industrial audio equipment on duty Friday and Saturday night. What's wild is you leave the room to go upstairs and you hear CineSea's soundtracks reverberating in the canyon between the hotels.
Super-8 and 16mm sound gone public! Where else will you ever hear that?!
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on February 11, 2016, 04:00 PM:
Sounds amazing Steve and let's hope when Kodak and Ferannia finally release their magical products, some of all this, including the Atlantic and the beach, the fanfare of the marching bands and classic cars not to mention those pro sound systems, can be captured forever on film one day, for us all to enjoy!
Take some very big binoculars, look out to the ocean,you may just see one or two of Brits looking on from our shoreline!
Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on February 11, 2016, 04:02 PM:
Steve...2 Breakfeasts and 2 Dinners? How hungry does the convention make you??
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on February 11, 2016, 04:07 PM:
A nice glass or two of a decent Merlot in the evenings I hope!
I think I've had my fill of Grits from my time there Ha ha.
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on February 11, 2016, 04:17 PM:
The official CineSea is one long Saturday: one breakfast, one dinner. (Lunch is up to you!)
Unofficially it begins Friday (one more dinner) and ends Sunday (one more breakfast).
Bearing in mind too: the hotel rooms have kitchens and if you want to stay back and cook something for yourself you can do this too.
I've had the rooms with balconies once or twice. Once I made a nice beef stew over egg noodles and had it with a glass of port with the ocean sounds coming through the patio doors.
-also very nice!
I don't think I'd ever miss breakfast out. Very often we go to a café at one of the other hotels on Ocean Avenue. When that happens, breakfast starts with a nice walk up the boardwalk. It's that great breakfast food your cardiologist warned you about: bacon, eggs, pancakes, waffles. The coffee flows hot and rich.
-You can enjoy it guilt free because of the certainty the walk there and back burned all the calories!
Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on February 11, 2016, 04:37 PM:
Sounds so nice. Being in a hotel far away from civilisation with people who have just one idea : put a projector on and screen films. What could you dream better ?
Posted by Guy Taylor, Jr. (Member # 786) on February 12, 2016, 06:23 AM:
Also Uncle Bill's Pancakes; a great breakfast restaurant on Pacific Avenue . I always get the cream chipped beef. We don't have that in the South.
Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on February 12, 2016, 06:40 AM:
"Uncle Bill" reminds me an American tv show from the 60's "Family Affair" that was translated in French by "Cher oncle Bill" (Dear Uncle Bill) :-)
Posted by Todd N. Tuckey (Member # 5054) on March 01, 2016, 06:45 PM:
Tammy and I are looking forward to the show this year...I just booked our room...(My wife and other daughter cannot come---they are committed to a party they are hosting that Saturday night and were so disappointed as they had so much fun last Fal...BUT, they will come back NEXT Fall for sure! Todd Tuckey
Posted by Joe Caruso (Member # 11) on March 02, 2016, 10:48 AM:
Y'all heard what the Big Todd-AO said..They are a' comin! - Shorty thinks that's a good thing
Posted by Pasquale DAlessio (Member # 2052) on March 02, 2016, 12:54 PM:
Well that's just tuckey ain't it? I hope to be there myself!
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on March 02, 2016, 03:12 PM:
It would be great to see you there once again, Pat!
Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on March 11, 2016, 12:16 PM:
Came across this short Super8 film on you-tube of your convention
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on March 11, 2016, 12:29 PM:
That's interesting, Graham!
It looks like the raw footage that went into Claus Harding's CineSea promotional video:
Cinesea Spring 2012
It is either the Spring or Fall CineSea of 2010 (#2 or #3): either the first one at the Ocean Holiday or John Black's last before he passed away.
Some notable cast members:
Tom Stathes (pac-man shirt)
Doug Meltzer (tan shirt)
Lou Franchetti (orange shirt)
John Black (light blue shirt)
Shorty Caruso (dark blue shirt)
This is either of two early ones I missed, so I have no idea at all what shirt I had on that day!
It's interesting how things have changed: this is a definitely smaller/quieter CineSea than we have now. It is a lot more active room these days.
It was also atypically warm then: we are more often in sweatshirts and I've seen it go as far as gloves and wool hats!
If it is #3, it came very close to being "CineSea Last", but people appreciated what John and Shorty were trying to do and took up their mission. It was "let's do it one more time for John.", but just kept going.
Posted by Evan Samaras (Member # 5070) on March 11, 2016, 01:23 PM:
Just closed my room =D
My room mate has been very interested in my projecting activities and decided to come along as well!
Posted by James N. Savage 3 (Member # 83) on March 22, 2016, 08:34 AM:
Cinesea is such a wonderful gathering of great folks sharing their passion for film & collecting.
I hope to make it there this year! And the Wildwood/beach location is an added bonus!
Thank you Doug, Shorty, & all that work hard to bring this event back every year.
Posted by Janice Glesser (Member # 2758) on March 22, 2016, 10:55 AM:
If I could just beam myself to the East coast I would join you all at Cinesea. Since that is highly improbable I'll just wish you all a great time....AND PARTY ON!
Posted by Joe Caruso (Member # 11) on March 22, 2016, 05:19 PM:
John was tops, will always carry the mantle of this nice show - Bless him - Everyone far and wide, please join us, our overseas collector friends, we would love to learn more and discuss film and buy/sell/trade - Cheers all, Shorty
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on March 22, 2016, 07:03 PM:
I was there at the very first and I thanked John for what he'd done. I'm glad I got that chance!
I'll always remember that trip. The car I had at the time was over 20 years old and I didn't trust it for a trip that far so I rented a budget edition Hyundai: it was tiny, plasticky and noisy, but at least it wasn't old enough to vote and I felt I could depend on it.
I headed down the Jersey Shore into territory unknown. I was breaking the internet-barrier: people I'd only heard of, but never really met. Was it curiosity or a sense of adventure, or maybe just the sense that having a hobby is naturally better when it's social too!
I approached that room and I heard a sound: a small gauge projector pounding away at 24FPS. Since I'd graduated from High School this had gradually become MY sound: since I seemed to be the only person left in the world that made that sound anymore. That day it was their sound too, and soon it became OUR sound.
The highlight for me that weekend was dinner out: nothing fancy, just a nice little Italian place around the corner from the hotel. It was Doug and Shorty and John Cappazzo and Tom Stathes and his girlfriend. The food was great, the talk even greater.
I bought exactly one print that time: a Blackhawk "Live Ghost". To this day I consider it a souvenir since my mission going there wasn't really to buy films. In years since I've gotten a lot more and a lot nicer, but I still go mostly to enjoy the weekend.
I look back on that first time kind of nostalgically, but to be honest what we have now is even better: more activity, more people, more films for sale and two great film shows.
Posted by Dino Everette (Member # 1378) on March 25, 2016, 11:23 AM:
Steve Klare said
quote:While I applaud Paul, let's not be so quick to crown a champion, as believe it or not Los Angeles may be slightly further, albeit less exotic.
Our reigning Distance Champion is Paul Oscar who attended from Iceland...twice!
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on March 25, 2016, 11:46 AM:
It's a lot closer than I would ever have guessed!
Flight Distance Reykjavik, Iceland to Wildwood, NJ
Flight Distance Los Angeles to Wildwood, NJ
Flight Distance Calculator
Paul came kind of by accident the first time, he was going to be in New York anyway.
-the second time it was actually on purpose!
Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on March 25, 2016, 01:36 PM:
However......since Paul flew into New York, let's compare:
LA to NY: 2787 miles
Reykjavik to NY: 2617 miles
No matter which way you look at it, thank you all for coming!
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on March 25, 2016, 01:55 PM:
-A measurement problem!
Is it total travel distance or net travel distance?
(What is the flight speed of an African swallow?)
Posted by Dino Everette (Member # 1378) on March 25, 2016, 02:21 PM:
OK, honorable mentions all around then as I flew into NY and drove to Wildwood as well......Would love to come again someday....
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on March 25, 2016, 02:37 PM:
You came to one of the few I missed, so I didn't get to see 9.5mm at the Sea Theater.
-I regret that!
We haven't heard how the Sea weathered that last big storm. Wildwood got hit pretty hard: I hope it's OK.
Posted by Joe Caruso (Member # 11) on March 25, 2016, 05:49 PM:
We should try and get that downtown theatre "active" again - Dino, you're welcome always - Driving distance from North Jersey to South; 3 hours and ten minutes - Guess I'm the Shorty-est
Posted by Patrick Walsh (Member # 637) on March 26, 2016, 06:20 AM:
I think I might come later in the year for your next Cinesea.
Posted by Guy Taylor, Jr. (Member # 786) on March 26, 2016, 08:03 AM:
I believe that I own the road trip distance . Been there twice; planning to again this October.
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on March 26, 2016, 06:28 PM:
The Spring CineSea and the Fall are pretty much the same animal: differences are few and very subtle.
For example if the phone in your room doesn't work, it must be Spring because they have been sitting unused for 5 months and the switch contacts are oxidized from the salt air. (Either ask the front desk or work 'em like the recording key on an abandoned Elmo!)
-on the other hand if you are out to breakfast and the waitress offers extra helpings free it means the restaurant is closing for the season: it must be Fall!
Green, cold swimming pool: Spring
Blue, cold swimming pool: Fall
The weather on average is what kinder people might call "brisk" at either time of the year. You can tell where people are from on the walk up to breakfast: the further south they live, the more arctic their outerwear!
There are exceptions: I'd say we've had at least two that it was actually warm or even hot. You need to allow for this possibility when you are packing or end up coming home with a "Wildwood, New Jersey" T shirt!
[ March 26, 2016, 08:27 PM: Message edited by: Steve Klare ]
Posted by Lee Mannering (Member # 728) on March 30, 2016, 08:02 AM:
Oft thought about it myself Dom, I think the nearest airport to it is Philadelphia, not sure how to get there after that.
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on March 30, 2016, 08:15 AM:
The nearest airport is Atlantic City (30 miles away?), but I'm not sure if there are international flights there.
If either of you got yourselves Stateside (not for example: Utah!...closer than that!), we would get you the rest of the way there for sure!
Posted by Michael Lattavo (Member # 4280) on April 08, 2016, 11:25 AM:
Just booked my room!
I can't wait!
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on April 08, 2016, 01:34 PM:
Excellent, Michael: welcome!
I have some "pre-flight instructions" to make your stay more pleasant.
-The rooms are comfortable and clean, and almost all of them have kitchens. Snacks, drinks and food you like may come in handy. However we are not meeting on the surface of Mars: there are supermarkets in Wildwood!
-The convention space is unheated. Bring clothing as if you are going out a few days on a boat: be prepared for anything! (OK,...no life vest!) We've done shorts and t-shirts, we've done winter coats and gloves too!
-If you have a Super-8 or 16mm film 20 minutes or less you would like to share with the Saturday night show, please feel free to bring it along. Please don't mind if there are a lot and you don't make it on screen! (It's not a contest!)
-We go out to eat several times. You can join in if you'd like, but you don't have to (either or always). They are about the only chance you will ever get to debate Eiki vs. Elmo, or Castle vs. Blackhawk publicly!
-the hotel has WiFi, and this Forum often reports live during proceedings.
-the south end of the Wildwood Boardwalk is about two blocks away and the beach is right across the street from the hotel. Everything from the sublime to the downright tacky is right there for your enjoyment!
This is very informal and unstructured. Once you find your room, follow the sounds of the projectors downstairs and introduce yourself!
Posted by Joe Caruso (Member # 11) on April 08, 2016, 04:42 PM:
Or you can hear me shouting along the way, "Blackhawk Lives!" - Well, not as loud as the T-Shirt I wear bearing its logo - Suggest also, as I do, check the weather about ten days before (long-range), as April is apt to be either warm or cool depending - Our usual sojourn is to The Crusader (walking distance) and/or (partial to) Uncle Bill and other nice places in and about town - Our dinners are splendid outtings, as of late Rio or Boathouse - We have alot of fun, carry on and under about the latest (and past) - By all means, bring films and be ready to debate why film over digital or vice-versa - Claus, our intrepid photographer par excellence, will document our maneuverings and forever 'frame us' for memories to come - And, if you have any 8mm...well, I certainly wouldn't mind - Shorty
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on April 15, 2016, 01:50 PM:
-I woke up this morning thinking it was next week, and by my first cup of coffee I realized that was just wishful thinking!
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on April 25, 2016, 03:49 PM:
We are now in weather forecast range.
All three days 50s/60s and partly cloudy.
-do believe I'll find my Fantasia sweatshirt tonight!
(-swimsuit?...not so much!)
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 25, 2016, 04:09 PM:
Perhaps someone should offer up "Partly Cloudy" as an appropriate 10 minute short then!
A nice fairly recent Pixar release by CHC in film terms.
Posted by Jason Smith (Member # 5055) on April 25, 2016, 06:35 PM:
I`m going to try and make it to the convention this weekend but I`m not sure if I will.
If I am able to make it, I wanted to see if anyone was looking for 8mm related equipment from Japan or films. I have a wide assortment of anamorphic lenses, various projector lenses, spare GS-1200s, and many 8mm digests/anime/and films that were only released in Japan.
Please send me a message within the next 24 hours letting me know what you are looking for and if I have it I will bring it.
Posted by Joe Caruso (Member # 11) on April 26, 2016, 01:16 PM:
Naturally, some Universal-Eight Horror/Monster/Comedy-related - Anything with Edgar Kennedy, Leon Errol and Clark & McCullough - Was there an 8mm anime of Ako; Plot of the daitokuji Finacial Group?
Posted by Michael Lattavo (Member # 4280) on April 28, 2016, 09:44 AM:
Looking forward to meeting everyone in person tomorrow night!
Posted by Joe Caruso (Member # 11) on April 28, 2016, 10:12 AM:
Sure thing, Mike - Bring film shorts, we'll talk - Shorty
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on April 28, 2016, 10:47 AM:
Forecast: 40s and 50s
Long pants and film sweatshirt much better!
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