buying/selling films -- accurate descriptions

[Brian Fretwell]

Another thing that get's me -- showing screenshots lifted from the web rather than when you projected it.

I saw one once where I thought the scan of the box was good. Then I noticed it had LPP written on it in MY handwriting - the seller had lifted my scan of my box off Facebook!!!!

[David Hardy]

In defence of shop film dealers such as Classic Home Cinema from whom i buy films and other film related stuff . In this day and age do you honestly expect a small family run shop to have the time and resources to physically examine every foot of every print they buy and sell ? Of course some bad stuff does slip through the net . That is to be expected these days . At the very least when i have received a poor or faulty print from CHC in Cleethorpes i have always been offered my money back from Phil in a friendly and helpful manner with no if or buts and always an apology . That's good enough customer service for me . It states on their web pages this ... " PLEASE NOTE THAT ALL FILMS HAVE BOXES, LEADS AND TAILS. QUALITY GUARANTEED- BUT THESE ARE USED PRINTS, NO PINK, WORN OR ROUGH PRINTS UNLESS STATED OR A MISTAKE AND WE WILL REFUND OR EXCHANGE ON THESE. " . Take note on the emphasis of the word MISTAKE . Here in the UK i can well remember receiving brand new and used prints in the past from the likes of Derann Films , Perry's Movies etc . So buying a "crap " print from anyone via mail order is not a new experience for me . We should be grateful that a bricks and mortar shop such as Classic Home Cinema still exist here in the UK and that dealers such as Phil Sheard take the time and effort and investment to help keep this hobby alive . Even more so when you take account that Phil has a lot of health issues to contend with at the moment . Of course we must not forget good old Barry Attwood of Independent 8 a mail order only dealer of used films who does a sterling job with his monthly listings available on a real paper print booklet listing . Even Barry keeps things going despite his own current health issues . I tell you now that i wish i did not live so far away from the CHC shop in Cleethorpes as i would be visiting it and supporting it on a regular basis . So guys its a case of use it or lose it and be grateful for what we currently have here in the UK . I buy very few films from Ebay these days with the overall inflated asking prices . At least the likes of CHC and Independent 8 sell their prints at fair and realistic prices considering the age of the prints . The same can't be said for the likes of Ebay . I also hope that Rob Foxon of Debonair Films makes a speedy recovery soon and is back on the film seller scene here in the UK . He too is currently missed .

[Mark Barton]

I am reluctant to sell any of my prints, usually, as the debate around condition is subjective. Now me, if I see a film I want and it's gone red, if the price is sensible, I will buy it. Why, because I love film titles on celluloid regardless. All past films were shot on celluloid, distributed on celluloid, and watched at the cinema on, yes, celluloid. At the end of the day any one interested in collecting film (celluloid) is an archivist, we are saving these physical carriers of story. How many Blu-rays are there of Star Wars, millions. But, how many celluloid prints of the film are there, 100 say. Our job is to preserve film, not unquestionably debate the overal quality, and be negative about colour, sound or splices. If you want 'quality', then buy a Blu-ray. Yes, there are sellers who, perhaps unknowingly, misdescribe a film (unbeknownst or knowingly), but a film is what it is, a physical entity prone to change. I recently bought from a 8mm forum member in the USA a print of Day the Earth Caught Fire (one of my favourite movies) Yes I've got it perfectly on blu ray, but to own a celluloid copy, yes, please. The seller stated it had VS and was warped, so what, the price was great and I wanted it. Film arrived as described. Copious amounts of film guard and winding and rewinding and it projects fine and I love it. And it should be noted that if you want a film based on the sellers objective description, then ask ALL your subjective questions before buying. Treat it like buying a second hand car, if you want it then do your research. Anyhow that is my pennys worth. Keep on collecting those films gang. Be safe

[David Roberts]

I sold a large collection of super 8 prints to CHC a few months ago.I got a very fair price for them and they collected from my address.
So I was very happy with their service.Also, ive known Phil to refund a payment,and not want the film back.

[Osi Osgood]

Brian, you might want to take a chance with Barry Attwoods super 8 business. Yes, it's overseas, but Barry keeps the shipping as low as possible, and he has affordable prices and quite a selection. ( Note: I get no kick back for sponsoring Barry 😀 )

[David Hardy]

David Roberts i too have had experience with Phil at CHC giving a full refund and not wanting the film back . What that suggests to me is that Phil does not want and is not willing to recycle and resell any bad prints . Now that is honesty and integrity for you . He also loses a bit of money or profit at the same time as he himself has had to fork out some cash to buy that print from someone else in the first place . We have to remember film prints do not grow on trees for free for any genuine film dealer and seller !

[David Roberts]

David Hardy,
Agreed. Prints now are mostly ancient so at least this will filter out some of these.

[Brian Harrington]

I recently received a full refund for the bad print I got on eBay. Seller paid for shipping back. So it didn't cost me a penny. I'd try those other online sellers if I were in Europe -- but I'm in the U.S. I, too, have had sellers issue a complete refund and told me to keep the print.

For that recent purchase, the seller should have done the same, since I doubt anyone else would want it.

Again, I don't think 2 random people would disagree on the condition of a print -- that is if they both actually projected it. That's the problem. What puzzles me is that I've had much better luck buying from sellers who know nothing about film nor how to project them. This most recent seller said it was top quality when it wasn't. So he was out shipping both ways -- and since it was a feature on metal reels, it was significant. I'm not sure anyone would consider a print with several jump cuts that eliminate a minute or more of footage "top quality." As well as splices every minute throughtout the first 40 minutes. I didn't even bother to watch the 2nd reel.

That same seller has been listing other films I'm interested in -- but it's not worth the hassle to risk getting another junk print -- even if it doesn't cost me anything, it's a pain to re-package it up and bring it to the post office. So nobody wins -- I didn't get my film, it cost him shipping, and I won't buy anything else from him.

Regarding eBay prices -- since I buy old B&W classics (many silent), mostly from Blackhawk, the prices have gone down over the last few years. For other films that go for more, like STAR WARS digests -- if the market can bear those prices, they will continue to sell at those prices. What gets me is the sellers who refuse to lower a price and renew the listing every month for several years! Now those people just don't get it. They think they have a rare "collectible".

[Mark A. Mander]

That's a result then Brian, glad you got a refund and postage costs back too, how it should be.

I understand that some people on ebay who sell haven't viewed the film and say it looks in good condition, you take your chances. I don't understand how someone can give a description and it's not how it's described when it arrives. I fairly recently bought an optical film from a dealer mentioned here,described as retains good colour,it was red, how can you grade a film and get it so wrong, the funny thing is I haven't bought for a number of years from them because of sending out rubbish but thought I'd have another go, nothing seems to have changed, he said he watched the titles on a very small sized picture and it looked OK, It's red, i give up!! You expect it from CHC but not this one.

[Ken Finch]

Considering the age of the films, a print in pristine condition would be a miracle! So much depends on how it was treated and stored by previous owners. Enthusiasts like ourselves have always been a minority. I could recount many a horror story from people I knew who used to run film libraries, 😳

[David Hardy]

Ken in the past i use to state as a joke that most members of the general public should be given a training course by the retailer on how to handle and care for film and projectors and pass it before they are even sold or hire films and projectors .

[Osi Osgood]

A lot of ebay sellers go thru a few steps concerning film. 1. Verify that it's film, 2. What are other sellers selling it for? 3. List it. They have really no idea as to whether the print is pristine ora complete waste of time, so it's imperative that the buyer knows what to look for. As a general rule, most sellers are honest, just under educated regarding film.

[Joerg Polzfusz]

Hi!

The difference between eBay descriptions and the reality made me stop buying films online:
There are sellers (on eBay Germany) that claim that a film is „excellent“ or „pristine“. But with this, they only mean that there aren’t many splices or perforation damages. In other words: the film can be nevertheless completely reddish and the sound might have been erased.
Not to mention that they don’t guarantee that the film on the reel(s) is the one mentioned on the box or that there’s actually film on the reels. (On some photos you can see that the reels are only half full or that there’s a B&W print in a box labeled „color“.)


Caveat emptor!

[Osi Osgood]

Another damaging thing, in my opinion, is the use of "AI" technology for the description, for those sellers that are apparently too lazy to verify they're product. I would be curious to see if any studies will be done on the effectiveness or lack of effect of using AI descriptions.

[Brian Harrington]

That's a result then Brian, glad you got a refund and postage costs back too, how it should be.

I understand that some people on ebay who sell haven't viewed the film and say it looks in good condition, you take your chances. I don't understand how someone can give a description and it's not how it's described when it arrives.

Because they're lying.

I fairly recently bought an optical film from a dealer mentioned here,described as retains good colour,it was red, how can you grade a film and get it so wrong, the funny thing is I haven't bought for a number of years from them because of sending out rubbish but thought I'd have another go, nothing seems to have changed, he said he watched the titles on a very small sized picture and it looked OK, It's red, i give up!! You expect it from CHC but not this one.

Sounds like the seller is a pathological lyer. The only way to "grade" a film is to either inspect it painstakingly on rewinds, or project it. Color you can see with the naked eye on just a few frames. On rewinds, you can check for splices and sprocket damage. You need to project to see if it causes jump cuts. You also need to be somewhat familiar with the film to know how much is missing because of jump cuts.

It's the cost of doing business -- there are no shortcuts. Those not willing to accept that cost simply will not run a successful business. You don't need an MBA from Harvard Business School to know that.