Cartridge CAD models, measurements, or blueprints, for super-8 and single-8

[Jenny List]

Hi all, and thanks to mods for approving my account.

I'm a hardware hacker and electronic engineer with an interest in 8mm cameras, I'm not a filmmaker, instead I've been experimenting for quite a while with designing digital cartridges. You may have seen a widely-publicised Super-8 cartridge containing a Raspberry Pi Zero, I've been pursuing a different approach for a while using an ESP-32 microcontroller.

I have more than one 8mm camera, as I'm guessing so do many of you

I'm looking for something that I don't have which I hope some of you might be able to either point me to or help me get. I'm after precision measurements of both Super 8 and Single 8 cartridges, such that I can make a CAD model and 3D-print cartridge shells more accurately than I can by measuring the cameras.

In particular I'm interested in a single-8 cartridge model, as I've never even seen one of these in the flesh and I'd quite like to see my Fuji working again.

Single-8 presents a particular problem for a digital cartridge, because of the film gate. I don't like to modify a camera unless it is broken (for example my Kodak XL33 has its shutter removed because its ancient nylon gears had crumbled to bits and it doesn't work as a camera any more), so I don't want to remove the film gate, but I think I can put a camera sensor on a flexible PCB through the ~2.5mm gap between film gate and camera body so it sits where the film would. Thus such a cartridge could be lifted out with care and replaced with a single-8 film cartridge if needed.

I don't know the internal geometry of a single-8 cartridge, but it's worth pointing out that from a CAD model it might be possible to develop a 3D-printable cartridge for filling with super 8 film.

I appreciate digital cartridges might be anathema to film enthusiasts, however I think anything that makes otherwise redundant cameras useful has to be worth a look. Thus can anyone help with those measurements? Are there any blueprints available online? I've not found any but I could have missed them. If not does anyone have both a Vernier caliper and a super- or single-8 cartridge to hand? I suggest that making these measurements and CAD models open source might benefit us all.

[Nantawat Kittiwarakul]

So you intend to have a "digital cartridge" for Super8/Single8 camera?

I really don't want to put you off, but I remembered hearing a similar concept a few years back (can't find the reference at the moment). Unfortunately it didn't pass the prototype stage AFAIK. There must be a reason for that I think.

[Brian Fretwell]

I also remember a sensor and digital storage for SLR cameras being proposed so that you didn't have to buy a new camera and that it could be replaced as new and better sensor chips came out. That never made it either - too much interest in selling new cameras all the time I should imagine.

[Jenny List]

So you intend to have a "digital cartridge" for Super8/Single8 camera?

I really don't want to put you off, but I remembered hearing a similar concept a few years back (can't find the reference at the moment). Unfortunately it didn't pass the prototype stage AFAIK. There must be a reason for that I think.

I think I am about to make your day.

https://www.raspberrypi.com/news/ras...er-8mm-camera/

I've been playing around with my ESP32 ideas for a while, and this guy meanwhile comes out with his Raspberry Pi version.

[Jenny List]

I also remember a sensor and digital storage for SLR cameras being proposed so that you didn't have to buy a new camera and that it could be replaced as new and better sensor chips came out. That never made it either - too much interest in selling new cameras all the time I should imagine.

I remember that too. The reason it never came to anything is that the sensor size is relatively huge, and thus either crazy expensive, or unobtainable.

[Jenny List]

I sense some skepticism from the replies above. Please take a look at the Raspberry Pi link above.

Maybe i should say something about the world I come from to throw some context. I'm an electronic engineer and technical journalist. I'm one of the staff writers and editors for a website called hackaday.com ( https://hackaday.com ). Our world is that of hackerspaces and makerspaces, engineers and other people who make stuff for fun, including very high-tech stuff. Our toys are 3D printing, computer aided design, surface-mount electronics, and precision assembly. So yes, I'm building a digital cartridge, and it will work.

On my desk right now: an imperfect 3D print of a super-8 cartridge (it's not quite right and doesn't fit some of my cameras. Without a real one to compare I can't easily tell where it's wrong.), a miniature 2 megapixel camera module (I'll remove the lens when placed in an 8mm camera), and an ESP32 module. I suggest you Google the ESP32, it's a dual-core RISC microcontroller, essentially a quite powerful all-in-one computer with built-in wi-fi, all for a few dollars.

[Jenny List]

So having I hope established some credentials, can I ask again. Does anyone have measurements, blueprints, or even real cartridges we can measure, for super-8 and single-8?

[Steve Klare]

Hi Jenny,

There are always plenty of Super-8 cartridges available on E-Bay, generally full of expired film that has a slim to none chance of ever being processed.

Some of them actually sell, but most are just there...

Your work is interesting, and it's possible that a 3D printed S8 cartridge could be itself a sellable item. I'm not sure if Kodak still sells the empties.

[Jenny List]

Good point. Am I likely to encounter people who believe an expired film cartridge from the 1970s is their ticket to untold wealth?

I've not seen any single-8 cartridges for sale, but have to confess I wasn't exploring that avenue.

[Steve Klare]

Well, I am seeing them on my side of the Pond for maybe $15 US, but by the same token the ones I am seeing as "sold" are often under $10. What's sad is back in the day, I bought fresh ones with processing for less than 4 dollars! (Mom and Dad were very kind: they gave me a generous amount of space on the bottom shelf in their 'fridge!)

There's a lot of dead film for sale, and not a ton of demand: a buyer's market!

I've always found Single-8 fascinating: with it's unlimited rewinding and real pressure plate that was part of the camera. I wouldn't have minded if it became the 8mm standard. Never, ever have I seen it in real life. It's not that you will never find it, it's just it may take a while!

[Maurice Leakey]

Jenny
Here is a Super 8 cartridge for sale. No bids at present. Sale finishes today at 18.13 GMT.
Kodak Super 8 Film Movie Cartridge Unmarked Kodachrome No box | eBay

[Maurice Leakey]

Jenny
Single 8 never caught on in the UK, but here is a cartridge for sale. Very rare.
Fujifilm Single-8 Cine Film Cartridge Fujichrome RT50 Out of | Etsy UK

[Tom Dennis]

Good Morning Jenny,

In my drawer of "justins" I have an unsed super 8 cartridge, as you live in U.K. will drop in a jiffy bag if this is any use to you. [N/C]

Have asked my no.2 son to have a look in his odds n sodds for single 8

Good luck with your project.
Tom Dennis

[Jenny List]

Wow, thanks everyone!

Tom, I'll send you a DM

[Nantawat Kittiwarakul]

Speaking about expired film stock on sale...

Just saw this on my local Facebook Group. A seller putting a few rolls of expired 16mm negative stock on sale for less than $40 & shipping included - sweet.
Unfortunately, for clarification (I assume) the seller was kind enough to take all films out of its can, cut open its sealed bag, and lay all down on the table to take several clear shots of the whole lot...


What a honest & helpful seller.

(Sorry I can't resist hijacking this thread.)