Printing Film From A Digital Source

[Douglas Meltzer]

Since the review thread of Dracula 400ft veered off to the topic of the technology involved in printing film from a digital source, I thought it best to create a new thread about that subject and move those posts here.

[Alan Myers]

Could I ask a question please?

I have read elsewhere that negatives are made, (Lee I think mentioned this), we now know this is not the case, so as Andec are able to print from a simple computer file sent via email, there is clearly no need at all for a negative to be made which was one of the most expensive parts of releasing a new print.
Therefore, what is the cost of the raw material to make a print £130 for 200ft when it is printed from a PC file? It just seems expensive when there is no profit in it.

I read that the sound stripe problem has now been sorted, could you elaborate on this please? What was the problem and how it has been overcome?
These are the things collectors need to know,
This has been a most interesting thread. Sadly for me, the price of new releases are a bit too high for me at this present time. Perhaps they may come down a bit later?


I do both film and discs, BUT, if your film only, that's fine, each to their own in my opinion.
The new releases look fine on screen and if your bank account is healthy and your able to afford them, then that's good, personally, as I already said, the prices are too high for me and the fact they come from a Blu-ray or 4K disc is something I can do myself and get printed on 16mm a lot cheaper.

[David Hardy]

Could I ask a question please?

On this thread the question of where the source is from has now been answered.

I have read elsewhere that negatives are made, (Lee I think mentioned this), we now know this is not the case, so as Andec are able to print from a simple computer file sent via email, there is clearly no need at all for a negative to be made which was one of the most expensive parts of releasing a new print.
Therefore, what is the cost of the raw material to make a print £130 for 200ft when it is printed from a PC file? It just seems expensive when there is no profit in it.

I read that the sound stripe problem has now been sorted, could you elaborate on this please? What was the problem and how it has been overcome?
These are the things collectors need to know,
This has been a most interesting thread. Sadly for me, the price of new releases are a bit too high for me at this present time. Perhaps they may come down a bit later?


I do both film and discs, BUT, if your film only, that's fine, each to their own in my opinion.
The new releases look fine on screen and if your bank account is healthy and your able to afford them, then that's good, personally, as I already said, the prices are too high for me and the fact they come from a Blu-ray or 4K disc is something I can do myself and get printed on 16mm a lot cheaper.

Alan your post has got me interested and i am now very intrigued. Is there someone in the UK who can strike 16mm film copies from a digital source a lot cheaper than Super 8mm film ?

[Alan Myers]

Sadly not in the UK David, I cant release the details as there is always an A hole who wants to cause trouble, but I'm sure on another thread here there are a few in Europe that have been mentioned. I just think, realistically, the new releases are just too expensive for the ordinary earner.

I am happy to see the new releases, and also very pleased that collectors are buying them so giving good support, but since the Jurassic Park release they seem to have gone up in price, yet, I know the average price for 16mm is a tenner a minute, so why are the 8mm almost the same, it doesn't make sense, Home alone - 30 minutes on 16mm (almost double what I think it should be £500+), but if the raw materials have gone up that much, along with the labour costs and postage, (not to mention the scummy taxes), then yes, I get it.

[Philip Hamilton]

ANDEC charges a fee to create the 'file' that is used to print to Super 8mm. ANDEC prints these "two at a time" and then splits them. For a 400ft reel (20 Minutes) ANDEC charges about 2000 EUROS (last I checked) maybe more maybe less - to create a 16mm Negative from a digital file or edited 16mm print. More recently, ANDEC has been able to skip this step and go directly to Super 8mm! I don't know what is involved - and would love to spend a day with Ludwig and have it all explained to me. Either way - ANDEC charges the same 2000 EUROS whether he produces a 16mm negative and answer print first or just prints from Digital. Let's just call that the SETUP charge.

Then, when prints are ordered you have to order two at a time. They have to be striped. And then if you want the soundtrack recorded that will have to be done as well. Doing just these things might be considered pricey. But then, at some point you have to recover your investment on the SETUP charge and this is where the price starts going up.

If MORE collectors who say they want new films would participate then the price of these films would come down. But as you know low volume produces higher prices. As is with purchase volumes where they are - those who produce these for collectors are losing money.

Kudos to them! for keeping the hobby alive and they do so because they are passionate about it.

Two more things -- I created a thread a while back about a KICKSTARTER campaign for a title folks were wanting. Response not overwhelming. Couldn't get enough interest to even CREATE the campaign. So, if there are maybe 4 people who want a film - it likely won't happen. You need about 20 to 25 participants to fund the SETUP and the prints to make it break even! Its a challenge for sure.

https://8mmforum.film-tech.com/vbb/f...-print-digests

Also, CinetechnicaMarino in Italy prints directly from High Def MP4 files. No Setup fee. Just charges by the minute. Includes sound recording and striping. It's a smaller shop than ANDEC but the shipping can be high so more prints ordered would make more sense. And the wait is long but then so it seems for ANDEC. I have one print from Italy and it's fine. The striping is paste I believe. I know Ludwig and ANDEC can handle volume. I don't know about this other option.

[David Hardy]

Sadly not in the UK David, I cant release the details as there is always an A hole who wants to cause trouble, but I'm sure on another thread here there are a few in Europe that have been mentioned. I just think, realistically, the new releases are just too expensive for the ordinary earner.

I am happy to see the new releases, and also very pleased that collectors are buying them so giving good support, but since the Jurassic Park release they seem to have gone up in price, yet, I know the average price for 16mm is a tenner a minute, so why are the 8mm almost the same, it doesn't make sense, Home alone - 30 minutes on 16mm (almost double what I think it should be £500+), but if the raw materials have gone up that much, along with the labour costs and postage, (not to mention the scummy taxes), then yes, I get it.

Alan thanks for letting me know . There was me getting all excited at the prospect of owning a new 16mm print of Dracula that will not fade for the same cost or cheaper than a Super 8mm copy . Oh well never mind such is the stuff that dreams are made of ! Cheers !

[Mike Newell]

Fascinating information

[David Hardy]

ANDEC charges a fee to create the 'file' that is used to print to Super 8mm. ANDEC prints these "two at a time" and then splits them. For a 400ft reel (20 Minutes) ANDEC charges about 2000 EUROS (last I checked) maybe more maybe less - to create a 16mm Negative from a digital file or edited 16mm print. More recently, ANDEC has been able to skip this step and go directly to Super 8mm! I don't know what is involved - and would love to spend a day with Ludwig and have it all explained to me. Either way - ANDEC charges the same 2000 EUROS whether he produces a 16mm negative and answer print first or just prints from Digital. Let's just call that the SETUP charge.

Then, when prints are ordered you have to order two at a time. They have to be striped. And then if you want the soundtrack recorded that will have to be done as well. Doing just these things might be considered pricey. But then, at some point you have to recover your investment on the SETUP charge and this is where the price starts going up.

If MORE collectors who say they want new films would participate then the price of these films would come down. But as you know low volume produces higher prices. As is with purchase volumes where they are - those who produce these for collectors are losing money.

Kudos to them! for keeping the hobby alive and they do so because they are passionate about it.

Two more things -- I created a thread a while back about a KICKSTARTER campaign for a title folks were wanting. Response not overwhelming. Couldn't get enough interest to even CREATE the campaign. So, if there are maybe 4 people who want a film - it likely won't happen. You need about 20 to 25 participants to fund the SETUP and the prints to make it break even! Its a challenge for sure.

https://8mmforum.film-tech.com/vbb/f...-print-digests

Also, CinetechnicaMarino in Italy prints directly from High Def MP4 files. No Setup fee. Just charges by the minute. Includes sound recording and striping. It's a smaller shop than ANDEC but the shipping can be high so more prints ordered would make more sense. And the wait is long but then so it seems for ANDEC. I have one print from Italy and it's fine. The striping is paste I believe. I know Ludwig and ANDEC can handle volume. I don't know about this other option.

Philip a big thank you for all that information and explanation regarding the process and some of the costs involved in producing new releases on film . Cheers !

[Adam Deierling]

To be clear, digital source or not, Andec still has to strike a negative in order to create prints. They don't make prints directly from a digital file... So yes, the expense is legitimate. I am not up on the equipment used or the photo chemical processes involved but it seems that printing directly from digital is not currently how they do things.

[Burton Sundquist]

...very good information gathered here! There are wins on both sides! The Digital to film enthusiasts, and film collectors!

[Andrea Fastame]

Hi guys.
In the last 12 years i purchased about 20 16MM prints here in Italy made from 2K digital source and i have to say the quality is outstanding i am really happy with these prints made directly from Digital source....anyway i still love so much also the prints made from 35MM NEGATIVE....
Super 8mm Andec prints are beautiful made from 35 positive i ordered a copy recently of THE CRIMSON PIRATE ian i am waiting for this....anyway a knew that they made prints also from digital source but not directly....the stlll put on negative the digital source.

[Lee Mannering]

As we have seen from the new releases the results from a well prepared Digital optimised master are pretty darn good to S8, mind blowing even! Yes the negative is the REEL key to a good final product and unfortunately the most expensive part of the process.
Lovely to see collectors enjoying the new titles and the thankful emails coming in always spurs us on.

[Osi Osgood]

One thing is for certain, any digital file used, must be at least 1080p, or preferably higher, as, lower Rez files will have digital noise, especially in fast paced scenes, as there is not enough bytes of information to adequately capture fast movement.

[Phillip Campey]

I think for one off prints no negative is created, the frames are lazer scanned directly to the film then processed using an arri lazer scanner. I think this machine can also create a negative to create multiple prints from.

[Osi Osgood]

I have to add one last step, and this probably the most crucial one! When preparing a digital file for conversion to a negative or back to film directly, one must be sure to export the file in a 24 fps format, as, as theatrical films since the silent era, have been at 24 fps. If you use a standard fall back on program that a video program uses for a PC, they will copy/export at a 25 point something frame rate, which means that when you have a fast sequence, the digital file will have slightly " blurred" effect, not on the original film. You MUST copy at a 24 fps rate!