New Curse Of Frankenstein recent release 400 foot version .

[Ruben Torrejon]

Osi, supposedly filming with a Super 8 camera off a projected image (from a consumer video projector) to get a Super 8 print is nothing new. It is an amateur version of the Kinescope process created in the 1940s to preserve videotaped sources. This, by no means, is comparable with a Super 8 reduction print from a 16mm negative professionally created, even when the said negative is created from a digital source (a DCP or Digital Intermediate). It is an imitation, not the real thing. We must remember too that all, and I mean ALL, commercial features (even those originated on 35mm film) use now a D.I. (for color correction and clean up purposes) since 2007, and the few exceptions are created on professional labs with equipment that is not old and rusty but mostly in very good condition (only a few labs survive and their job is mostly great as it is required by their clients) and that most commercial theaters (with a few, very few exceptions) use DCP (either 2K or 4K, flat or scope) for projection. Even film originated movies are shown using DCPs (being a few 70mm and true IMAX prints exceptions).
Almost everything in life can be debated but I only wish to expose facts, not opinions. Of course this is a free speech forum and I assume that, as in life, not all will agree.

Warm regards to all forum members,

Ruben Torrejon

[Osi Osgood]

We will let the images speak for themselves, of course. ( Note: I have already seen the two prints side by side. 😃 )

[Ruben Torrejon]

I think we all agree we cannot judge a film print from a photo or video taken with a smart phone, don’t we?. Is as simple as that. BTW, some questions arise about this subject:
1. What’s the true intention of this comparation between a print from a well known lab (Andec) and a (publicly) misterious individual living in Italy?
2. Who is doing the comparation and why now?
3. Moreover: Osi, sounds a bit strange you mention you have had the chance to view both prints. How come? You purchased both prints of the same title yourself or they were given to you as gifts?

Just wondering…. I think it’s important to know all the facts, don’t you?

Warm regards

Ruben Torrejon

[Osi Osgood]

No, I don't own the prints, I saw the two prints screenshots, projected with the same projector, same lamp and same distance, same cellphone, and I know the character of the person who gave me the screenshots, and he has an impeccable integrity. BTW, most cellphones, if held properly, will give you some pretty accurate screenshots these days. Best regards, of course.😃. Personally, I see no harm in doing a comparison, especially when the Italian firm is made to look like some "amateur" and literally made to sound like someone so technically unsound. Don't get me wrong, I respect the fact that you are producing new prints in the well worn and respected way, hey, I did that as well, around 15 or so years ago myself, but I personally own 5 recent releases, done the old school way, optically printed, but I also own some of these prints struck by the Italian firm, and I can say, without a shadow of a doubt, that this man is not making a poor grade "telecine". This is a man who has actually manufactured all of his machines, does all the work himself, including striping AND recording and delivers an incredibly good product.

[Ruben Torrejon]

I understand, so you don’t have watched the actual prints yourself but some screenshots taken by other person and based on that you will judge. I see. I think everything is clear. So you saw screenshots taken by a guy who purchased two prints of the same title, who does that?
I see you edited your post to make it even clearer that you are making free (?) publicity of the “Italian firm” or “a man” in your own words that does an “incredibly good product “. He is a genious, he does more than a specialized lab, but he is still anonymous, as anonymous as the “person with impeccable integrity “ who sent you screenshots done with a smart phone.
No, you don’t respect I do new prints, Osi. Do you really want me to talk more about the support you offered for Ultra 8? I’m sure you don’t.

Who does this comparison remains in the shadows and nameless and give to you screenshots as his agent. I am sure you have the prints yourself. Well, I think all forum members have enough elements to get an idea.

Ruben Torrejon

P.S.: I have been able to watch the results of the misterious one man lab, BTW, and the results are terrible and absolutely unprofessional.

[Osi Osgood]

Ruben, you have seen screenshots of the Italian prints on previous posts on here already, as everybody else has, and the results are quite striking. I am no one's agent, I just hate seeing a decent fellow with a good product being degraded, just because he isn't using the old school method. You yourself would have to admit, that you have received a good deal of free publicity as well, and yes, myself as well, as I will always champion anyone who is willing to produce new product. Also, you stated more than one untruth, beyond being an "agent", I do not own nor have ever owned either print, Andec or Italian, so that's untrue. Personally, while I will watcha Hammer horror on DVD, I don't love the films enough to financially invest in them on Super 8. The person who owns both print's, has helped in the process to bring this exceptional digest to life, hence having a print made by both firms, but when he is ready, he can, of course, respond for himself. I'm sure that you understand, that, whether we speak of the German or Italian firm, anonymity is important for both, as, well, as you well know, NO ONE has permission from the parent studios, for any of these new prints, beyond trailer reels.

[Ruben Torrejon]

Everything is clear, Osi. I think forum members may have everything clear too although your reply is a little messy.
Sincerely you don’t deserve to be here, a person who asks for free prints to give good reviews (with prior approval!).
So sorry, Osi, but you should not be here.

Regards

Ruben Torrejon

[Osi Osgood]

What Ruben refers to, is I had sent a private PM, saying that I would, if he would like me to, do an extensive review of any of his releases, provided that I could actually visually see the print in question and keep the print in question. No harm in that. Note that this was in private PMs, however.

[Philip Hamilton]

Actually it is ME that has the two prints - one from Andec and one from Italy. I purchased several prints from Italy earlier this year and posted pictures of them elsewhere in the forum. I was very pleased with the end result and mostly the PRICE. 7 Euros per minute. Includes print stripes and recording. The service is not fast.

Now, the reason that I have two copies and yes that does sound strange, is because I did the EDIT on the 400’ CURSE OF FRANKENSTEIN. My agreement for doing so was to receive a copy of the film - as produced and printed by ANDEC - as payment for my services. IT TOOK FOREVER to get this copy from ANDEC. Did I say FOREVER ? Yes, FOREVER.

Now receiving prints from Italy is not fast either but I also understand that the Italian operation is smaller - a one person shop - and not staffed like the larger operation in GERMANY (ANDEC). So I ordered CURSE form Italy at their reasonable prices in order to finally receive a copy of the work I did. Not long after I received the Italian print I heard that FINALLY Andec was gong to make prints of this movie. What took so long? Also, I was commissioned to do a 600’ edit for another film collector earlier this year. He has been waiting patiently for months for Andec to produce the negative so prints can be made. Months! I was told a couple of days ago that it will likely not happen until January 2025 at the earliest. Why?

In my opinion Andec has no excuse to delay this work for months. It makes no sense. It’s a larger operation and yeah I have heard that Ludwig lost his guy that does the negatives but then I also hear that he has been replaced. True? I have no idea. But what is true WAIT TIMES with Andec are frustrating. Maybe some have had better experience. But not the folks I have talked to. Italy is slow but then it’s a small shop in comparison . Understandable.

I will point out that both prints look great! Both sound GREAT but the Andec print seemed a bit louder - not a big deal. The ANDEC print has a mono polyester stripe - we’ve all heard about the difficulties Ludwig had printing the stripe properly on these prints in the beginning - sound fall off etc. THAT appears to be corrected now. In comparison, The Italian print uses a paste stripe with both track 1 and track 2.

I took photos with my iPhone of both of these prints. The iPhone is not great. It would be best to SCAN the frames to get a more accurate representation - but the pictures do show some differences. Mostly what I am seeing is more color saturation on the Italian prints. I understand this is because the custom printing system used there allows for some tweaking of the image. That is what I am told. And, the pictures I will post will bear this out. These pics are untouched - just arranged for side by side comparison.

This is not intended to suggest that Andec’s product is inferior in anyway. There are some who say their image is SHARPER. When projecting these I could not see that - but then I have a smaller 3’ x 4’ screen. I know some who project on a 5’ x 7’ screen and say the Italian print was not as sharp. I couldn’t tell but then I didn’t see them side by side. For my enjoyment the Italian Super 8mm product is just fine and meets my expectations.

I will post images a bit later and when you see them - you can judge for yourself. Projected everything is SHARP. Use this mainly for COLOR comparisons. The Italian print is 'warmer' overall and to me projected looked much more TECHNICOLOR like. That is my opinion.

GERMANY …………………. ITALY

[Douglas Meltzer]

Philip, Thank you for clearing that up.

I don't feel it's valid for us to judge the true quality of either print from the screenshots. There are too many variables that affect the image here, especially when it comes to color. I've taken shots of a film with my phone only to see the hue appear different in each picture.

Looking at Philip's images, I'm not fond of the flesh tones in either example, however I would need to see the actual prints to make a critical decision. Philip has seen both of these projected and he's expressed his preference. Sharpness is very important to me and I believe that would certainly come into play with a larger image. We use a 9x12 screen at CineSea and I've had prints that I thought were fine look pretty darn soft when projected that large.

Important point: While the Italian "firm" cares deeply about the process, he is only interested in doing one-off prints. He does not want to get involved in new releases. If you're looking for multiple printings, that is not the way to go.

Another important point: I need to hear more about this “review” print request.

[Larry Arpin]

I have to confirm with Philip about Andec taking a long time to deliver. I have a few negatives there I made years ago and it seems it's been 6 months already or more. I tried looking thru emails but couldn't figure even an approx. date. It's always co-workers sick, etc. It wasn't this way 10 years ago. It seemed only a few months at most. Andec does a great job as I was very pleased with Reuben's release. I'm sure it has to do with the amount of profit on relatively small orders. So I'm sure it won't improve.

OK I finally found the order email dated July 13, 2023. So it's been over a year.

[David Hardy]

Philip Hamilton thanks for posting those screenshots . From what i see so far and from what my memory tells me in my opinion i think that the Italian print may be closer to the 35mm Eastman colour original release . The German labs Andec print seems to have a somewhat bluish tint to it . I look forward to seeing more screenshots . Cheers !

[Ruben Torrejon]

Philip, Thank you for clearing that up.

I don't feel it's valid for us to judge the true quality of either print from the screenshots. There are too many variables that affect the image here, especially when it comes to color. I've taken shots of a film with my phone only to see the hue appear different in each picture.

Looking at Philip's images, I'm not fond of the flesh tones in either example, however I would need to see the actual prints to make a critical decision. Philip has seen both of these projected and he's expressed his preference. Sharpness is very important to me and I believe that would certainly come into play with a larger image. We use a 9x12 screen at CineSea and I've had prints that I thought were fine look pretty darn soft when projected that large.

Important point: While the Italian "firm" cares deeply about the process, he is only interested in doing one-off prints. He does not want to get involved in new releases. If you're looking for multiple printings, that is not the way to go.

Another important point: I need to hear more about this “review” print request.

Fellow collectors,

One cannot judge a print from screenshots taken with a mobile phone. All modern phones tweak and enhance their photos so, I insist, you cannot judge a film print from still pictures taken in projection . Even considering that, the Italian guy”s pictures clearly show blown out highlights and lack of definition. Furthermore, his prints have had known problems with motion (image smearing) and their soundtracks have had unusable stereo sound and constant faults on the main track (not evenly applied).

Regarding reviews, I truly believe one cannot take seriously a review based on “gift” prints….

Best,

Ruben Torrejon

[Osi Osgood]

I never possessed either of these prints, that's a lie, nor have I ever had the lack of judgement to make public, private PMs. A person who makes private PMs public, perhaps THEY shouldn't be here, as THAT person cannot be trusted with private info. Private PMs are just that, if they wished to state things publically, they would do so. When a person chooses to violate privacy, then it's awful hard for that person to gain back that trust, not just with the person they chose to violate, but all others as well. Was it worth violating private PMs, just to " get back " at an individual, in this case me? In all my over twenty years on this forum, I have never violated the "rule", whether written or unwritten, of making private communications, public. THAT is one of the most important levels of trust, to be a member of a forum. Now, regarding the two prints side by side, I agree that there can be variables to cellphone photography, but the argument of bad mag stripes is equally applicable to Andec prints as well. In truth, sadly, all three recent Andec prints, JAWS, Jurrasic Park and the 600ft Star Wars, all purchased brand new, ALL had mag stripe issues. I have the 600ft JAWS, Andec, and the 10 minute Italian digest of JAWS, and the Italian JAWS digest had a much better color saturation, the 600ft JAWS suffered from a constant optical smear on the image, as well as being slightly over exposed and being a little bluish. I get a lot of this, there is the "film forever" crowd, that demand that it be completely film, from source print, to negative, to positive super 8 print, then there are those that can appreciate an image that is taken from a digital source/file, and skips the negative step, which offers some definite advantages, as, a whole level of "grain" is removed from the process.😀 One thing is absolutely sure ... Someday, when the last of the optical printers are a garbage heap and can't possibly be resurrected again, this fellow in Italy and hopefully others by then, will be the only source for new Super 8, and his prints get better by the day.

[Ruben Torrejon]

Seriously? You still have the nerve to intervene here and appeal to privacy? The issue is whether you offer positive movie reviews in exchange for free copies. Privacy? Is that true or not? It's true. It's true that you shouldn't continue writing reviews on this forum because you act in a self-interested manner. What matters are the real facts, and not the mention of private messages, and if in those messages you say that you write a positive review in exchange for a free copy it's clear what that means. Osi, you offer positive reviews in exchange for gifts. Let's see what the administrator of this forum decides, he has the proof.
Ah, how you take advantage to attack a professional laboratory, Andec (yes, a professional laboratory, look at the 2024 winner of the Academy Award for Best Cinematography, Poor Things, and look in the credits for the name Andec, yes it's there), based on the laminated mono tracking service? Here it has little to do with it, when those of us who want a stereo track use the impeccable services of Movie Magnetic. You mention, Osi, that you have different digests and a few messages before you said that you did not buy Super 8 copies… Now you say that you have digests from Andec and the Italian gentleman (M.M.). You have recent Super 8 movies but you don’t buy Super 8 prints as per your prior message… does it mean that you did o did not pay for them?
Finally, Osi, if you propose me in a private message an indecent act, the gravity of that act is more important than privacy. The fact is that you have offered me a totally positive review, even with my prior approval, in exchange for a copy of my edition. That has a name…. And the fact is that now, since I did not accept your proposal, you make positive reviews of the competition (which BTW is totally amateurish) and that clearly seeks to have a negative impact on me. I have not violated anything, I have defended myself.
For my part, full stop. Everything is sufficiently clear.

Ruben Torrejon