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Gentlemen thank you for the reply to my question regarding the source material for this 400 foot edit of Dracula . However i only have half the answer to my question . So the colour has been digitally restored but was the source master used actually on film 16mm or 35mm ? Or was this release printed from a digital file ? Cheers !
Last edited by David Hardy; February 05, 2023, 09:20 AM.
I don't think in this day and age, that it matters if it's from a digital or celluloid, as, before nearly any feature we see in the theaters hits the screen, it's went from celluloid to digital, when it's mastered for the theater, it's digitally mastered, even when they make a 35mm print for theatrical distribution, if a celluloid print is even struck, it is struck from a digital master. This is no different and, at least it's going from digital to celluloid. In some ways, it's super 8 never having looked better, especially since most digital masters have purposefully diminished grain, so you don't end up with excessive grain on these new super 8 film stocks, and these new super 8 film stocks have a very low amount of grain to the image to begin with.
..."if people are "film only", they need to get out of the hobby. " a bit harsh. Some collectors are happy with and only want prints pre-digital Era.
To tell them that they should leave the Hobby is not necessary .They are savvy enough to what sources and prints they can trust and get the prints they want. They wil not buy into this new Digital thing. Dave, don't get me wrong, No slight against you and your releases, but telling film purists to get out of the hobby is not a great way to build a reputation.
Burton and Phil i 100 % agree with your comments . I have been collecting 8mm films since the mid 1960's when i was only a young lad of 12 years old . I still collect film on all gauges be it 35mm , 16mm , 9.5mm , Standard 8mm and Super 8mm . However i do like to know the sources of the masters used when and where possible .I am now 69 years old and certainly do not intend to get out of the hobby anytime soon regardless of any new releases or any pressure from my family or friends to do so . I do not consider myself a film purist though as i also still collect Laserdiscs , DVD , BLU RAY , and even some VHS tapes . Therefore i have no issues with video or digital sources but i am still curious as to the master source used to strike this latest 400 foot Super 8mm film edit of Dracula . So can anyone let me know ? Cheers !
I can't speak for all of Dave's new releases, but most are from digital. Home Alone is from a 4k digital restoration of the camera negatives. Does it really matter in the end? You are getting a new super 8 digest that is digitally restored from the film elements.
I don't know quite where to start here. The film industry from day one has always been about the latest technology, and within the industry a cinema/theatre is referred to as an exhibitor, as you are exhibiting the latest technological advancements. But the industry has always had the attitude of take it or leave it, or go under.
I can imagine back in the 50s when theatre owners were told that they would have to destroy, in most cases their beautiful theatres in order to show the latest new releases in cinemascope, that this didn't go down very well. But, hey ho take it or leave it, there was no option.
The industry is now in the same situation. Within the past twenty years only a hand handful movies have been actually shot on film stock. it beggars the question why? If nobody now can show them.
I will take a prime example, James bonds Skyfall. A brilliant movie. Does this mean that we would never be able to have a super 8 print or digest of this film?
Unless we embrace this technology and what can do for us, otherwise how could this be done? The movie was produced solely on digital with no film used within its production. As far as I know there was only one film print produced of this movie and that was on 70/15 Imax, produced from the digital file.
As soon as you transfer a digital source that could contain anywhere between 30-120 frame rate onto film stock, running at 24 fps it automatically produces the image that we know as film. If it's good enough for 70/15 Imax then it's surely good enough for super 8.
If you are going to produce a release of a film print, surely it is logical to use the finest copy that you can get yours hands on as the master, and that I am afraid will be on digital. In most cases of classic films, the majority of these have had millions spent on them over the years restoring them back to their full potential, with a new negative being produced from the final digital file, but no new prints made. And again, why would they?
The days of walking into a studios film vault and seeing film cans floor to ceiling as far as the eye can see, like the final scene from Raiders of the Lost Ark, are over, they don't exist anymore. All of those prints have been destroyed. At the end of the day why would you want to use one of these ropey old prints as your master.
Take the release of Jurassic Park. This was a world wide release. The film started off with a 35mm camera negative and also, Oh my god CGI (digital) is this one off the list too? And by the time it has left the studio's editing room it is already 3 or 4 generations away from the original camera neg, as the new master negative.
So how do you get this onto every cinema screen across the globe on the same day? That my friends is called duplication, on duplication, on duplication. By the time that the so called the new "master negatives" leave the studio to be shipped to each countries labs, they are at least now ten generations away from the camera neg.
So how did each countries labs produce the hundreds of prints that were needed off of this "master negative" they duplicated it. Internegatives, interpostives, you name it. On average the prints that were distributed to cinemas across the globe, where getting on for twenty generations away from the original camera neg, looking gritty and grainy with low contrasts and this was a brand new print!
The trouble with film is, it's analog. And with everything that is analog it degrades with every part of its processing and duplication. So you want to take one of these prints, if you can find one, and I can't imagine what state these would be in now, and duplicate it again at least another three times to get it into super 8, then count me out.
This is like an Audiophile saying I only will listen to music if its only from a Edision cylinder. We now have the technology and equipment to produce the unthinkable for our hobby, and I guarantee if this technology had been around back in the 70s that every super 8 distributor would have gone down this road, because why would you want to produce an inferior product if you have the means to produce perfection for the product. Just look at any print produced in the days of super 8, they are all crap compared to what can be produced today.
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However as for studio film vaults now, they will probably contain thousands of reels of B&W separation negatives for films made on digital video as a back-up for file corruption.
As some of you may or may not know I was in post production for many years dating back to 1980 so I've seen lots of changes. Pre-digital you would take your original cut negative and make what is called an inter-positive with all the color timing built in, which is a low contrast positive image on an orange base. From that you can make as many internegatives as you want without going back to the original negative. Nowadays, I worked for a digital intermediate company since 2004, we would scan the lab rolls, mostly 2K, but sometimes 4K, conform the scenes, color time it, then shoot out the digital files back out to film. So films such as Jurassic Park, Dracula, or Home Alone all originated from 35mm film. I owned the 600 ft Jurassic Park and I believe some scenes were full frame and some masked so I assume this came from a 35mm print. It looked very good. David said the lab cleaned it up. So maybe it was scanned, cleaned up, then shot out to a 16mm negative. I have yet to see a direct digital file to super 8mm print but I suspect it would look very good. No different than a digital intermediate. There has been some claim that the sources are 4K, but Ludwig told me that he needs 2K but didn't say anything about being able to handle 4K directly to make a 16mm negative. So maybe someone may be able to confirm this. Maybe some are reducing the 4K files down to 2K. Don't know.
Burton and Phil i 100 % agree with your comments . I have been collecting 8mm films since the mid 1960's when i was only a young lad of 12 years old . I still collect film on all gauges be it 35mm , 16mm , 9.5mm , Standard 8mm and Super 8mm . However i do like to know the sources of the masters used when and where possible .I am now 69 years old and certainly do not intend to get out of the hobby anytime soon regardless of any new releases or any pressure from my family or friends to do so . I do not consider myself a film purist though as i also still collect Laserdiscs , DVD , BLU RAY , and even some VHS tapes . Therefore i have no issues with video or digital sources but i am still curious as to the master source used to strike this latest 400 foot Super 8mm film edit of Dracula . So can anyone let me know ? Cheers !
David - I am 99% sure it was printed to Super 8mm directly from a digital source. I know that Andec can do this - they can also print from a 16mm negative - at least that is what I understand. So was there an intermediate step? Maybe. Why do you ask? Is there something about the image you like/dislike and are wondering how it looks the way it does? Just curious.
...These are all excellent points; I have some of the new Digital to film master to Super 8 releases myself and indeed they are very sharp and look great on Super 8 : I give Kudos to Lee, Dave, Steve O and Adam for bringing Super 8 up to date with new titles and reviving that collection spark! 600 foot Color CURSE Of THE WEREWOLF is on my list! Just the comment suggesting that some collectors should leave the Hobby threw me off.
Philip , thanks for your reply and it seems as if you have now answered my question. I was simply curious and that is the reason i asked the question as to the master source be it film or digital for this 400 footer . Like i implied before i am neither pro or anti film or pro or anti digital so i get along fine with both for my domestic movie collecting wants . However i will state that in all my decades employed as a highly skilled professional cinema projectionist i never got bored or disinterested while handling and projecting film . I found working daily with all those digital projection setups that were taking over from film as the norm as interesting as watching paint dry . Cheers!
Thanks to ALL of you who contributed to this thread , either for or against digital sourced film prints .
YOU have exorcised your freedom of speech rights and I am proud of you all . LONG LIVE SUPER 8 FILM !!!!
Thanks to ALL of you who contributed to this thread , either for or against digital sourced film prints .
YOU have exorcised your freedom of speech rights and I am proud of you all . LONG LIVE SUPER 8 FILM !!!!
I too would like to give a big thanks to all of you who replied to my query regarding this particular release on Super 8mm film . Long live film on all gauges !!! Cheers Dave and everyone else .
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