Need advice on a 16mm projector

[Fred Hess]

I'm thinking about setting a 16mm system similar to my 8mm setup. I don't get many calls for 16mm, but I've recently had to turn down a couple jobs for transferring 16mm and am toying with the idea of putting a new system together.
I'm assuming that I can follow the same procedure that I used for 8mm. LED light source, new lens, removing all gate obstacles, etc.
I'm wondering if anyone has some advice about a good 16mm projector I can use. I really like my Dualux 1000 for 8mm. Did they also make a 16mm projector? Or are there any others that you have used that work well (and are relatively easy to convert)?
Any ideas appreciated! Thx

[Robert Held]

I'm building a similar system, fully stripping down a 16mm projector and installing my own motor, controls, light, etc. I'm using a mid-70s Bell and Howell Filmosound. I chose it because it's an easy projector to modify and there are lots of them available on Facebook Marketplace or Craigslist for $50 or less. However, every one I've found (and I've bought three of them, all local to me) has a split worm drive gear. Reading online, they essentially have all split, even new-in-box ones. And if the gear hasn't split yet, it will sometime soon. It's quite the design flaw. A replacement, newly machined gear is about $100. Replacing it is a little complicated, but there are good Youtube tutorials. In any case, there are lots of different 16mm projectors and if get creative, I think that most, if not all, can be modified for scanning.😀 I project 16mm with an Akai SNT-0, which is a fantastic machine, in my opinion. Elmo projectors are really great too. But at the cost of projectors like Akai and Elmo, I'd be reluctant to strip them down and modify them, unless one could be found that's basically junk other than the mechanicals. I don't think Sankyo made 16mm projectors.

[Fred Hess]

Thanks Robert. Good to know. Wondering if I should look for something with sound. While most R8/S8 reels don't have sound, I'm not sure about 16mm. Was sound a common feature of 16mm?

[Stan Jelavic]

Hi Fred,
16mm has magnetic and optical sound. I have modified several 16mm projectors with Kim's help using the RPI camera for real time transfer at 24FPS. Pretty decent transfer and good sound.
Real time transfer has some ghosting issue and some people prefer to go frame by frame. I have not done any frame-by-frame in 16mm but upsampled the capture at 48FPS and used the odd or even frames which significantly reduces ghosting. Although this produces very good results, the process is more compicated.

[Robert Held]

As Stan mentioned, 16mm film usually has sound, so a sound projector is definitely needed. Sound has been around since the late 1930s. However, earlier 16mm from the 1920s until the late 1930s is silent. Silent 16mm has sprocket holes or perforations on both edges of the film, and sound 16mm has perforations only one edge, with the optical or mag track on the other. Silent 16mm also runs slower at 16 or 18 fps.

[Fred Hess]

Stan, I've been looking at using the PI camera for awhile now, but haven't gone down that road yet. Seems like it takes a lot of configuration and wiring and programming to get it working. I really like the results I'm getting from my 3CC Panasonic, so I keep pushing the idea into the corner. Perhaps with a 16mm setup I can go that route. Are you willing to guide me along the way? Do you have any pics of a 16mm setup that you use? I think I can modify a projector without too much trouble, but as far as setting up the camera, well I'd need lots of guidance. I'd sure appreciate your help (as well as anyone else who can give me some guidance!). I'll start browsing YouTube also to get me started. Thanks.

[Stan Jelavic]

Hi Fred,
This will give you a rough idea of what is involved.
https://github.com/vintagefilmograph..._TRV16H_HD_mod
You can also run 48FPS with this setup for low ghosting (more postprocessing):
https://github.com/vintagefilmograph...frame_by_frame
You also could consider Elmo 16CL mod. May work with your CCD camera.
https://github.com/vintagefilmography/ELMO_16CL
I can help you with the setup.
Stan

[Fred Hess]

Hi Stan,
Just exactly what I was looking for! Some great info for me to peruse. Once I purchase a projector and camera system I'm sure I'll be back seeking more advice. Thanks for helping me out!
Fred

[Stan Jelavic]

Any time Fred...

[Fred Hess]

A couple questions for you all...

Robert, I see a lot of those Filmosound projectors on eBay, most pretty reasonably priced, but I'm nervous after your comments about the worm gear. Does that crack render the unit unworkable? There are also some Elmo projectors but they are much higher priced. I agree that I'd have to be very careful if I wanted to modify one of those for my use, but I'd rather have something of higher quality to work with. Are there any other projectors that might be worth looking at?

Stan, regarding the camera, I was looking at the Pi HQ camera. I've seen some videos using that camera with 8mm film and it looks like it takes quite the lens setup to enlarge the images whereas your setup doesn't look nearly as complicated. I'm assuming that the 16mm image will be large enough to fill the screen without a larger lens. Is that right? I was thinking about using the camera for both 8mm and 16mm so I'll need to explore what lens are needed for both. The camera comes with either an m12 mount or a C/CS mount. Which do I need? Also, the Raspberry Pi has different options for the amount of RAM. Does it matter when using a Raspberry Pi and the HQ camera?

Thanks.

[Robert Held]

Hi Fred,

Yes, the worm gear issue will eventually render every Filmosound projector unworkable. The worm gear teeth are made of nylon that is over-molded onto an aluminum hub. Over time, the nylon dries out and shrinks, while the aluminum does not. Eventually the nylon cracks and then splits. Gears that are only cracked will still function, but they will eventually fail. It's a shame, as in my opinion, they are nice projectors that are easy to find and typically inexpensive. Aftermarket gears have been available for years, but the replacement process is tedious. I bought this one: https://www.ebay.com/itm/355818251620. The quality is really good and it should last forever. Other than Elmo and Eiki, I know that Kodak produced 16mm projectors, but I'm not knowledgeable about their quality, price, etc.

Robert

[Nantawat Kittiwarakul]

For 16mm gauge the projector of my choice would be the slot loader ones, namely Eiki SL series...


Some advantages over autoloader and/or manual threader ones.
- It's just as fast loading as autoloader, but you don't need 6-10 feet of pristine leaders on all reels. It's a heck lot more forgiving on leader conditions.
- Even if film breaks you can unlace the film, reload, then resume operation in just a few seconds. Imagine trying to unlace your chewed films from Bell & Howell auto-shredder. Even with the help of a tweezer that would take, at least, a few minutes or so.
- This projector will give you random-access like capability. You can stop the projector, rapidly wind the film back/forth manually to the desired point, then resume. So I can test-run the film to be scanned & making adjustments on the camera. When I'm done the tweaking I can just quickly wind the film back to the begining, then start the scan instead of runing it in reverse throughout. This is a massive time-saving for me.



And due to the modularity of this partucular machine I can easily & cleanly remove the shutter blade and its main drive motor, and replace it with a servo-controlled ones. So I can set it to run at PRECISELY 24.000 FPS (or in fact whatever speed I want) thus it'll be in perfect sync with the camera throughout. So yes, I'm now able to scan 16mm films, frame accurate, and in real time.

The initial price would be somewhat higher than some other make & model. But if you shop around and be patient you'll eventually stuck the gold mind then. After sneaking around my local FB marketplace for almost a year I eventually got this machine for about less than $200, shipping included, in almost perfect working order (slight issue here and there, but nothing catastrophic). With some subsequent replacement parts & modifications my total investment is still well under $300. I've run thousands of thousands feet of films through it ever since - and that worths every single $ I poured in.

[Fred Hess]

Thank you, Nantawat. I found that same projector on eBay, but the guy wants $500 for it. I'll wait a while and see if I can't locate one for less.
What kind of camera are you using with this setup? I was hoping I could use my Panasonic 3CC for capturing 16mm in real time. Since it works well with 8mm, I thought the same would be true of 16mm. Am I wrong in my thinking?

[Nantawat Kittiwarakul]

If your camera works fine on 8mm setup then it should perform equally well on 16mm also, provided that you have the right optics for it.

For the camera used Panasonic GH5 is my main workhorse, as it does have every single bell & whistle you'd ever need for this task - everything! With its interchangable lens system means it could be adapted to literally every use scenario. It could be slapped onto everything - telescope, microscope, TV zoom lens, manual film camera lens, etc. - you name it! The start price would be a bit high (around $500 for a 2nd hand fully functional ones) but that worths every $$$ spent in the long run. However if you're tight on the budget you may consider tlhe lower model (G90/95, G7 for example) which still gets the job done.

[Stan Jelavic]

Hi Fred,
I used the RPI HQ camera on both 8mm and 16mm projectors. Used the same 16mm lens with it but obviously the lens distance is different depending on the type of the film. Let me know if you want more details.