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Author Topic: Elmo ST-800 Belt Replacement & Film Feed Problem
Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3350
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011


 - posted January 28, 2012 01:00 AM      Profile for Janice Glesser   Email Janice Glesser   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I just bought an Elmo ST-800. It appears to have been sitting around for a long time. The upper belt was missing and the motor belt was turning into black goo. There was a lot of that black goo spattered on gears and other parts.

My first question is what should I do to first make sure the parts are clean?..What should I be looking for? Should I use a solvent?...The melting rubber is pretty nasty [Smile]

My second question is directed to anyone who has a ST-800 or has replaced belts on one. I'm just guessing on the upper belt (see photo).

Where I have drawn the red oval is where I think the belt should go...is that correct? Also, in the same picture I put an arrow where I think the gear could be loosened to get the belt threw...is my assumption correct?
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I will be removing the motor belt...I'll probably just cut it since it's such a mess. But any suggestions on putting in the new belt? There seems to be plenty of space on the motor side (green arrow)...Is that the way to go?
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Any advice or suggestion would be greatly appreciated.

--------------------
Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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frank arnstein
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 532
From: Gold Coast. Australia
Registered: Jan 2005


 - posted January 28, 2012 08:41 AM      Profile for frank arnstein   Author's Homepage   Email frank arnstein   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Janet
The top belt loop looks ok but dont loosen that screw to get around the gears. Rather loosen the two tiny grub screws in the pulley hub and the front piece of the blocking gears will slide off the shaft allowing the belt to get past. The motor belt is easy to fit once you clean off the black gunk using a solvent like brake cleaner evaporative spray in a can. Dont inhale and be careful of fire if you use the spray and good luck cleaning it then running it again

dogtor frankarnstein

[ February 07, 2012, 12:32 AM: Message edited by: frank arnstein ]

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At Projector Heaven the Focus is always on Detail.

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[o:/o]<|=- dogtor@projectorheaven.com.au
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Roger Shunk
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 604
From: Phoenix, AZ
Registered: Nov 2011


 - posted January 28, 2012 09:09 AM      Profile for Roger Shunk   Author's Homepage   Email Roger Shunk   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Janet,
Congrats on the Elmo ST-800. I had to replace my two belts on my ST-800 and yes it's a real gooey mess! I used denatured alcohol which did the job for me and I had to remove some of the nylon gears to clean them because they were such a gooey mess! Lots of Q-tips! The upper & lower belts are easy to replace and I made the mistake of taking that small set screw off and also that plate which holds the right upper arm in place so I should have taken
Franks advise had I known at the time so don't make the same mistake I did!
Good luck with your new projector and have fun with it! Drop me a line sometime and let me know how you like it.
Roger [Smile]

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Gerald Santana
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1058
From: Cottage Grove OR
Registered: Dec 2010


 - posted January 28, 2012 12:32 PM      Profile for Gerald Santana   Author's Homepage   Email Gerald Santana   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It looks like an easy job Janice and congrats on your new projector.

Make sure you wear gloves for this project, it's very hard to get the goo off of your fingers...

There's a OM for the ST600 on Forums tab under manuals here:

http://www.film-tech.com/warehouse/index.php?category=2#8mm%20Projectors

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http://lostandoutofprintfilms.blogspot.com/

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3350
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011


 - posted January 28, 2012 01:02 PM      Profile for Janice Glesser   Email Janice Glesser   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
@Gerald...Yes, I've already found out this is a glove job...I'm trying to hunt down some old surgical gloves I use to have [Smile] I did get an OEM manual with this projector. When I get a chance I'll scan it.

@ dogtor Frank...Thank you for your quick response. I'm so sorry for my mechanical vocabulary ignorance...but the terms "grub screw"..."pulley hub" and "blocking gears"...escape me. [Confused]

Are any of the screws labeled 1, 2 or 3 the screws you mean?
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I also have some Goo Gone and alcohol..it seems less toxic, but then it may not work to clean this up. I'm going to the hardware store to see if I can find the break cleaner you mention. I'm thinking I may need to us it outdoors.

--------------------
Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Gerald Santana
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1058
From: Cottage Grove OR
Registered: Dec 2010


 - posted January 28, 2012 02:49 PM      Profile for Gerald Santana   Author's Homepage   Email Gerald Santana   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
91% Isopropyl alcohol works just fine. Yes those surgical gloves work fine, I use them myself to apply Film Gaurd. In a pinch, if you happen to have a bottle of hair color still in the box, you can find some gloves there too!

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http://lostandoutofprintfilms.blogspot.com/

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frank arnstein
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 532
From: Gold Coast. Australia
Registered: Jan 2005


 - posted January 28, 2012 05:59 PM      Profile for frank arnstein   Author's Homepage   Email frank arnstein   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Janice

Go one more gear to the right of number 3. A grub screw is a tiny screw locking the plastic gear to the shaft so it doesnt come off the shaft.
You will need a Toryx tool to loosen these 2 tiny screws that lie below the surface level, as would a grub in a vegetable.
have another close look at the far right plastic pully with the tin plate over it. Work it past the tin plate to remove it off the shaft then the belt will easily go over.

dogtor frankarnstein [Razz]

--------------------
At Projector Heaven the Focus is always on Detail.

____
[o:/o]<|=- dogtor@projectorheaven.com.au
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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3350
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011


 - posted January 28, 2012 08:46 PM      Profile for Janice Glesser   Email Janice Glesser   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks Frank...I located the grub screws [Smile] ...and was able to get both belts installed. Hooray!

There is still some more cleanup to do beneath the shutter area, but I can't get to it with a Q-tip. I'd like to remove that round grey thing (green arrow....sorry I don't know it's name). There is a cotter pin in the front...if I remove that will it slide off or is there a better way?

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--------------------
Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

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From: Long Island, NY, USA
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 - posted January 28, 2012 09:14 PM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Janice,

The gray thingy is the flywheel. It changes the pulsating motion of the film through the gate to a smooth(er) motion over the sound heads.

If you remove the cotter pin it will slide off the shaft. It's actually designed to slip on the shaft so when a film is being started in the machine the flywheel can gradually come up to speed without dragging its roller on the surface of the film (nasty!). This is the function of the bent plate between the shaft and flywheel.

Something I've found kind of cool is any decent sound projector will continue to have its flywheel spin for several minutes after you stop using it. Considering the bearings involved are often over 30 years old, this is a sign of how well these are built!

The ST-800 is a great machine. I had a lot of trouble with mine early on, but once I got it healthy it's my most dependable (8 years now.) If you've found one in great shape you'll be very happy with it. If not, you've come to the right place!

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3350
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
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 - posted January 28, 2012 10:45 PM      Profile for Janice Glesser   Email Janice Glesser   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks Steve..I'm trying to contain my excitement. There's still plenty of clean up to do...but knowing there are a few ST-800 owner's around is very cool [Cool]

--------------------
Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3350
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011


 - posted January 29, 2012 04:52 PM      Profile for Janice Glesser   Email Janice Glesser   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I finished cleaning up the rubber goo and turned the projector on. Motor ran great...arm spindles worked forward and reverse...and the light came on. I was surprised at how quiet it was. It may be quieter than my B&H 33ST. So far, so good.... I haven't run any film through it yet, so I'll have to report back on that. Stand by [Razz]

--------------------
Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

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From: Long Island, NY, USA
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 - posted January 29, 2012 05:13 PM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sounds good!

Don't be surprised if your audio is dead (...after this much time in storage it almost should be!).

Oxides form on switch and jack contacts unless broken by using them. Given years they become thick and signals can't get past.

On my machine it was the headphone jack at first and the red record key often later.

Plug/unplug those jacks and switch/unswitch(?) those switches!

--------------------
All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3350
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011


 - posted January 30, 2012 01:35 AM      Profile for Janice Glesser   Email Janice Glesser   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Autoloading of the film is turning out to be my first hiccup with this machine. The film loaded fine through the gate, but then doesn't turn down into the sound head section. I tried hand feeding it, but it then stops at the feed rollers that are connected to the fly wheel. The fly wheel isn't turning, so the rollers aren't turning. What turns the fly wheel?

Here's a few photos...if that helps.

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

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From: Long Island, NY, USA
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 - posted January 30, 2012 05:57 AM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Janice,

The film itself turns the flywheel. It just needs to get there first.

This is a new one on me.

Is your loop restorer fully seated in its rest position? If it was in the way it might route the film outward. (Mine seems to cover less of that bottom sprocket than what's shown in your last picture, as if the restorer lever is rotating further counter clockwise.)

Are you loading the film in the first forward selector position? (forward/lamp off). Your sound chute looks closed over the heads. When you change the selector it should stay up and then close down when you get to the second forward position (forward/lamp on).

--------------------
All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 6845
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 30, 2012 08:06 AM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Here's what I'm talking about: (picture is worth a thousand words...)

 -

This is a quick cellphone shot I took before I left for work today.

If you look at the loop restorer (Its pivot is at the center of the picture), you'll see that mine seems to be pivoted further counter-clockwise.

Maybe this is just the angle we took the two photos from, or maybe yours isn't getting fully out of the way and it's shunting the head of the film out of the projection path.

--------------------
All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Paul Browning
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 995
From: West Midlands United Kingdom
Registered: Aug 2011


 - posted January 30, 2012 09:07 AM      Profile for Paul Browning   Email Paul Browning   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi janice, perhaps i can be of some help to you.I also own one of these excellent machine's but on your upload of the three picture's your first show's the white film leader going into the top gate, if you look just above you will see a guide shaped like a 'u 'upside down with a cerated top?, when first threading up this leaver should be in the down position,this will stay down if the funtion switch is turned to F and then snap back to this positon when threading is complete ie at the take up real,just make sure that the film is naturally curling into and not away from the film guide as this can sometime's have the same effect you have described.Hope this help's you good luck.

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3350
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011


 - posted January 30, 2012 01:04 PM      Profile for Janice Glesser   Email Janice Glesser   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
First off I want to say all of your feedback has been very helpful. It's gotten me to look and re-look at how things are working. Anyway...I think I have isolated the film feed problem.

The guide labelled #1 stays closed when the machine is in Forward and the top looper lever is pushed down to start the autofeed.

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When I manually open the guide labelled 2 ... the film continues to load properly up to the take-up reel.
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Any ideas on what's happening here?

BTW...I ran a 200ft reel with sound through the machine. So looks like the sound is working [Smile] :)You guys are right...this is a beautiful machine.

--------------------
Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 6845
From: Long Island, NY, USA
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 - posted January 30, 2012 01:33 PM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That'll do it!

That chute is operated by a Rube Goldbergian series of levers and linkages all the way back to one of the cams rotated by the selector knob. The fact that you are getting lamp and motor at the right time means at least the various cams are doing their thing. (They control a lot of stuff...)

When you twist the knob, the lobe on this cam rotates so that in every position but "fwd,lamp on" these linkages are pushed out and the chute pushed up out of the way. When it's time for the show everything is allowed to relax and spring tension pulls the chute closed.

The action mostly happens inside the cover that holds the speaker. I'm betting if you open that up (No electric power needed: safer that way!)and twist the knob to and from "fwd, lamp on", you will see some steel link move, but another that it seems to want to be connected to will stay still. (What we have here is...failure to communicate!)

This is fun once it works!

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 6845
From: Long Island, NY, USA
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 - posted January 30, 2012 04:07 PM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Just a thought...

That set of linkages passes right through the same neighborhood the motor belt lives in.

It could be a surgical misadventure!

(My sister is an OR Nurse: that's what she calls 'em!)

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3350
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011


 - posted January 30, 2012 04:17 PM      Profile for Janice Glesser   Email Janice Glesser   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
So Steve...in the off position the guide should remain up, where as mine is not. I've looked at the steel links move while turning the knob in the Forward and Light positions. They stay static in the Off and Reverse/light positions. I haven't located the mechanism that controls the guide positioning. I hope this isn't a show stopper. [Frown]

I can take some more photos, but not sure on what section to concentrate on. Would taking a close up of the linkage help?

--------------------
Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

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From: Long Island, NY, USA
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 - posted January 30, 2012 05:39 PM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It should go like this.

Forward Position 1 (motor forward, no lamp) the threading guide locks down when pressed and the film chute stays up.

Forward Position 2 (motor forward, lamp lit) The threading guide releases and the chute clamps closed to hold the sound stripe to the heads.

(The threading guide is the one that pokes out the top of the machine.)

All other positions: threading guide won't lock, chute stays up.

If I remember right: the linkage that is directly connected to the back of the chute runs vertically between the motor body and the motor belt. When you go to "forward, lamp" this should move down(?), the top link should pivot and the chute should move on the other side of the wall by twisting a rod running through.

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3350
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011


 - posted January 30, 2012 07:27 PM      Profile for Janice Glesser   Email Janice Glesser   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I don't see any rod as you described...nor does any movement of the linkage seem to effect the chute. However it is effecting the upper threading guide which is working properly with the selector knob positions.

Although it may be hard to identify the issue...I've taken some closeups of the linkage in hopes you or someone can use them for comparison with a working machine. (Note: The selector knob was in the off position and the chute was down and the upper threading guide was up.)

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Please anybody who can lend some assistance please chime in [Smile] This may be a missing part...a disconnection... or something out of alignment.
...AND by any chance does someone have a service manual for the Elmo ST-800?

--------------------
Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 6845
From: Long Island, NY, USA
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 - posted January 30, 2012 07:53 PM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The ST-800 service manual is out there somewhere, but since Christmas 2003 I've been looking and never seen one. There would be a little less mystery in my life if I had a set of schematics for this beast!

You are looking at the correct linkage.

What you can do to get to the bottom of it is look through the square hole in the plate the guides and heads are mounted on (It shows in the top photo of your post today at 1:04 PM at the upper right). You will see a tab on the back of the chute that is pressed upwards by the linkage from the other side. You will see the business end of the linkage too.

The question is where does the motion stop? The linkage should only move when you are ready to project (forward, lamp).

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3350
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011


 - posted January 30, 2012 09:23 PM      Profile for Janice Glesser   Email Janice Glesser   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
In looking through that square opening at the top right of the guide...I can see a piece of metal that when I nudge it...it moves the guide. I think to get to that area I would have to remove the gears plate behind the fly wheel. I still don't see where the linkage or the threading guide connects to this area... at least not from a surface look.

Considering my lack of expertise do you think I could cause more harm then good to start removing stuff to get to this area. I'm game to try if this is the direction to go.

--------------------
Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 6845
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 30, 2012 10:17 PM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think the question is when you move that piece, does something on the other side of the chassis move too.

We'll break out the scalpels and rib spreader later!

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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