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» 8mm Forum   » General Yak   » Choosing a Video Projector (Page 2)

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Author Topic: Choosing a Video Projector
Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1621
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted November 06, 2009 03:00 PM      Profile for Rob Young.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mark, with the greatest respect, I simply cannot agree.

For example, it is irrelevent how many pixels you have on LCD if one or more of them fails, especially common on cheaper machines, then you just have a persistent blemish on the image...check CAREFULLY before buying. Let's not even get into "dust ingression".

Contrast ratios aside (which means very little), most VP's (especially LCD) will NOT produce anything like decent black levels. This is so important if you want to use them for watching movies.

And as for DVD "blowing away 16mm"? Again, I don't want to get into a row here, but there are so many variables...

With the best print, equipment etc, 16mm will simply dump on DVD. Now this isn't to say that you can't get really good results with DVD, but there are so many factors to consider...

Blu-ray / HD is different...own set of problems and advantages.

Can I just say that this is a great discussion and I don't want to upset anyone...quite the opposite...it's great that we can discuss all this so openly.

I'm sure I'll have some disagreement with my views and be glad to continue... [Smile]

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John Hermes
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 134
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 2008


 - posted November 06, 2009 03:45 PM      Profile for John Hermes   Email John Hermes   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I prefer DLP myself, as I think it looks more "filmlike", after coming over from LCD. I started out with Super 8 film, then to 16mm, then to 35mm, so I have seen a lot of film over the years. My DLP projector has a 6x wheel and have shown DVDs, HD DVDs, and Blu-ray to at least 30 people and no one has ever complained of headaches or other problems. A 6x wheel does cut rainbows way down compared to a 4x. I essentially never see them anymore.

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John Hermes

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1621
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted November 06, 2009 03:54 PM      Profile for Rob Young.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John, I agree 6x makes a big improvement, but I still see it. [Frown]

I suppose if you see it, you always will... [Frown]

Not to say I don't love DLP. It's bigest advantage is response time. No image drag of any kind.

That and sealed optics, so no dust ingression. Texas Instruments now offer 5 year warranties on DLP chip-sets regardless of manufacturer.

3 chip DLP is of course the perfect solution...for £10,000 - £12.000... [Roll Eyes] We can dream!

I loved DLP until I saw D-ILA. [Wink]

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 6916
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted November 06, 2009 04:14 PM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
For £12,000 I'd like it to have four tires and at least four cylinders!

This kind of money really erodes the cheap media idea, but I guess if you can truly afford the machine, it's a "don't care" anyway.

Is there a lot of motion smear with an LCD machine?

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Mark Todd
Film God

Posts: 3803
From: UK
Registered: Aug 2003


 - posted November 06, 2009 04:36 PM      Profile for Mark Todd   Email Mark Todd   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Rob well maybe I am just lucky with my Philips as it easily blows much 16mm away in the home, and for quite a few reasons.
Also you can actually sit nearer too it and still have great focus etc so can have a larger big screen experiance.

Many of the Office based VP,s now are very well geared towards DVD projection and do a superb job.

On my XGA no screen door at all on a 5-6 feet wide picture sitting 6-10 feet away, and an awesome picture.

These machines and the like are a superb easy way in to the dvd projecting and watching side of things.

I paid £65 delivered for mine with only a few hours watched and have now racked up around 550 hrs myself, though around £125/150 delivered for one as good as that is more the mark.

The chap who sold me mine was into AV and was interested in my cine hobby so wanted to know my thoughts on the B,Sure from the cine point of view so actually sent it to me free, waited to hear my review ( SUPERB !!!!!! ) and then said £65 posted. Very kind and the best £65 I ever spent on the big screen.

Also get a nice budget machine to sneak in to VP, and you then have a handy cheap back up machine once you dive full in or a great one for the kids cartoons etc.

Disney on my VP for instance is awesome but the philips is a great performer.

I have to dissagree reagrding 16mm, good VP beats it and Blu Ray projected 1080p is like 35mm in the home I hear, well I ahve been told its better really.

Best Mark.

PS I love my super 8 films, but VP is another thing in itself.

PPS just seen your post Steve on my VP I`ve never seen smear or even jaggies, well not noticed any, I can`t even see edge enhancement though its maybe there sometimes. I think its all down to hitting lucky with a right on but still super affordable machine.
Epson 4/3 office jobs are often very cheap 2nd hand and look good. I mentioned the philips like mine as its got such a good long zoom.

The epson I might go for for 720p in the UK would be the TW680, a lovely looking machine and I believe 3 years cover including the lamp in the UK.
Anyone can knock this and that on various VP`s, but just get one, bung it on and sit back and enjoy the films up there and you won`t ever look back Steve or anyone.

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1621
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted November 07, 2009 04:51 AM      Profile for Rob Young.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Mark, I'm glad that in the case of your projector you got yourself a gud 'un! [Smile]

All I'm trying to point out is that there are a lot of potential pit-falls with VP's to watch out for before comitting any level of hard-earned cash; for all the good ones out there, there are plenty of "duffers".

As for 16mm vs. DVD, lets leave that old chesnut; we'll have to agree to differ and the more time spent discussing it leaves less time for actually watching movies [Big Grin] .

Steve, smear isn't an issue on LCD projectors, but the inherent lag of liquid crystal technology (and this includes my beloved LCOS) can produce slightly undesirable effects on fast moving objects. Now this is being HYPER critical and isn't REALLY a problem, but it does exist and all I'm saying is that DLP performs better in this respect, but, in it's single chip form has other issues...nothings perfect [Razz] . Maybe best not to worry about it...

For me, 3 chip DLP would be the dream because of all the technologies it really, really works the best...but of course it is just far too expensive and unrealistic to consider.

As for really expensive VP's eroding the notion of cheap media, well I don't know...true the discs are relatively cheap, but then most people I guess are taking advantage of the improved quality on TV screens, not VPs, so once you enter the VP market it's a whole different ball game.

You've got to ask yourself what sort of big screen TV you could get yourself these days for £500-£1000. I think you could get a darn good one and (oh dear, I'm gonna be all controvertial here again [Razz] ) one that picture quality wise, would be far better than a VP at the same cost...albeit with a smaller image.

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Christopher P Quinn
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 210
From: Bedfordshire
Registered: Sep 2008


 - posted November 09, 2009 11:24 PM      Profile for Christopher P Quinn   Email Christopher P Quinn   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
You've got to ask yourself what sort of big screen TV you could get yourself these days for £500-£1000. I think you could get a darn good one and (oh dear, I'm gonna be all controvertial here again ) one that picture quality wise, would be far better than a VP at the same cost...albeit with a smaller image.

If your talking High def only you may be right Rob. But for DVD and laserdisc the LCD TV would not be able to compete.

Chris.

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Chris Quinn Rides again.

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Mal Brake
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 586
From: Neath, South Wales, UK
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted November 10, 2009 03:36 AM      Profile for Mal Brake   Email Mal Brake   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There is one big advantage with a DP over a TV (and this advantage applies to 8mm &16mm too) and that is impact. My son-in-law was boasting about his 50" inch TV and how good it was for sport and film watching...which it is. One day he was in my dedicated film room (OK spare bedroom)and said the picture wasn't much bigger than his TV picture. He was right, we were watching a 1.85 ratio film but then I played the trump card; a 'scope film which I zoomed to almost fill the 7'6" screen. I explained that's the difference, his TV would still only be 50" with any ratio film and he would have those black bars with anything wider than the 16:9 TV format.
Mal

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I'm gonna live forever or die trying

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Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 4917
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted November 10, 2009 07:28 AM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes Mal, that's the way to really show off your system - Cinemascope films presented that way (constant image height) puts any flat panel TV in the dust. One is cinema, the other is still TV.
I would say that with a blu ray disc the picture quality is now much better than 16mm and almost as good as 35mm. I am using blu ray with my 720p projector and it looks awesome, and yet I know it will be even better when I upgrade to a new 1080p projector.

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The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Christopher P Quinn
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 210
From: Bedfordshire
Registered: Sep 2008


 - posted November 10, 2009 11:01 AM      Profile for Christopher P Quinn   Email Christopher P Quinn   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I was thinking more about the projectors ability to deal with lower resolutions without blocking them like the TV's do. But i also agree with what has been said above. But, if you look at HD on an LCD screen for just pure picture quality, I think there may be a case in saying that it is getter better and has taken over projectors. But i would have thought on more expensive sets in the 2000-3000 pound bracket, rather than the £500 sets.

Chris.

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Chris Quinn Rides again.

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1621
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted November 10, 2009 11:36 AM      Profile for Rob Young.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Christopher, a friend of mine has just ordered a 42' Panasonic plasma for £700.

Although he intends to use Blu-ray with it, the majority of his vast collection is DVD or standard definition films on a hard-drive recorder.

He chose this TV because he was particulary impressed with the quality from standard definition, which is important to him.

But, yes, you can't beat big projected pictures for sheer impact value.

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Thomas Murin, Jr.
Master Film Handler

Posts: 260
From: Lanoka Harbor, NJ, USA
Registered: Sep 2009


 - posted November 10, 2009 10:53 PM      Profile for Thomas Murin, Jr.   Author's Homepage   Email Thomas Murin, Jr.   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Add my vote for the Panasonic AX200U. I've had one since early last year and have never been happier. I replaced the bulb last month just 100 hours shy of it's rated life (1800 hrs.) Even then, the old bulb was still providing a pretty good picture. It just got too dim for my tastes.

For the record, the actual difference between 720p and 1080p is very slight. Most people can't tell the difference. I know I can't. I'm very happy with 720p and hope I won't be replacing my AX200 for many years to come.

Tom

--------------------
My crummy Deviant Art account. Read my poetic tribute to the internet comic strip Ozy & Millie and view my crappy attempts at art.

http://cougartiger.deviantart.com/

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Christopher P Quinn
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 210
From: Bedfordshire
Registered: Sep 2008


 - posted November 11, 2009 10:51 AM      Profile for Christopher P Quinn   Email Christopher P Quinn   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes Rob,
The Plasma sets i here are better at low res, i wonder what the new LED sets are like. Anyone got any info on them?

--------------------
Chris Quinn Rides again.

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Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 4917
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted November 11, 2009 11:47 AM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Chris,
The LED sets are getting very good reviews here in the US. The main advantages of LED over LCD are better contrast, much lower power consumption, and 20,000 plus hour lamp life. LED TV sets are also extremely thin, only 1.0 ins thick. LED home projectors are just around the corner. Imagine that, no need to ever have to replace a $400.00 lamp!
Also in the works are home projectors using laser light sources.

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Steven J Kirk
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 871
From: Southern England
Registered: Apr 2008


 - posted November 12, 2009 01:02 PM      Profile for Steven J Kirk   Email Steven J Kirk   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
As long as it projects out of a lens onto a screen I'm for it! 16mm I love but HD video is now tremendous. But keep everything, at some point you won't even see film in a public cinema and be glad to have 8 and 16 at home.

--------------------
VistaVision
Motion Picture High-Fidelity

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1621
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted November 13, 2009 02:14 AM      Profile for Rob Young.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The first "domestic" DLP video projector to use LED as a light source, and now available, is the Vivitek H9080FD. Sadly, the cost is £11.000 [Eek!] !

Also, light output is rather poor at 800 lumens. The big advantage is no rainbow from it's single chip DLP because it doesn't use a colour wheel. Although the price rather negates that advantage at the moment. Expected life is 20,000 hours.

LCD TVs that uses the full-array LED system do offer much better black level than previous LCD displays. Some sets use edge-lighting LED however and are still advertised under the banner LED. These do not offer the same improvement as full-array displays.

OLED (organic LED) was seen as the potential future of TV, with better imagery than LCD or Plasma. Sony managed to get the XEL-1 11 inch display produced but at a ridiculous price. It did, however, show the potential of the format...then the credit crunch hit and development of new TV technology took a back seat.

It seems that now both Samsung and LG are interested in developing OLED again, with LG set to introduce a 15 inch monitor and Samsung potentially investing massively in the production of screens 30 inches and upwards.

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Steven J Kirk
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 871
From: Southern England
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 - posted November 13, 2009 11:13 AM      Profile for Steven J Kirk   Email Steven J Kirk   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
My thinking on many improvements in contrast ratio and in 200 - even 600hz picture technology is that it serves to make the picture more videoy and less filmy. I have a Loewe 37 inch flatscreen TV and it took quite a bit of settings juggling to get rid of 'video movement'. I mean the actual action of actors and camera moves looked like news video. Out of the box it was set up and THE BLACK SHIELD OF FALWORTH was on which managed to look alarmingly like some kind of hi-def video! Quite an achievement. Turning much of the proprietary processing off helped bring back the film look.

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VistaVision
Motion Picture High-Fidelity

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Richard C Patchett
Master Film Handler

Posts: 422
From: Flint Mi 48506
Registered: Dec 2007


 - posted November 13, 2009 11:19 AM      Profile for Richard C Patchett   Author's Homepage   Email Richard C Patchett   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Greetings
I have 2 of theses for the wife's Business for her presentation
Great LCD for the money
I can get you a deal on one of these new They list for retail $995.00 US funds
Forum members price $800.00 Plus Mailing
Contact me at patchetts@ameritech.net
Or if you see something else

EIKI LC-XA20 3LCD Projector Information
Manufacturer EIKI
Manufacturer Part # LC-XA20
MSRP $995.00
Production Status Shipping
Release Date NOV 2006

EIKI LC-XA20 3LCD Projector Specifications
General Aspect Ratio 4:3 (Native), 5:4, 16:9
Brightness (ANSI Lumens) 2000 ANSI Lumens
Contrast Ratio 400:1
Display Type 0.6" Polysilicon LCD x 3
Resolution (Native / Max) XGA (1024 x 768)
UXGA (1600 x 1200)
Video Compatibility NTSC, PAL, SECAM, NTSC 4.43, PAL-M, PAL-N, HDTV (480i/p, 575i/p, 720p, 1035i, 1080i)
Projection Lens F = 1.7
f = 20.06mm
Number of Colors 16.7 Million Colors
Size Dimensions (WxHxD) 3.15in. x 13.00in. x 9.33in.
(8cm x 33.02cm x 23.7cm)
Weight 6.4 lbs. (2.9 kg)
Connectivity Inputs 1 x D-Sub 15 Pin
1 x Composite RCA
1 x Ministereo
1 x Audio RCA (L/R)
Control 1 x RS232
Operation Power Supply 100 ~ 240 V / 50 ~ 60 Hz
Power Consumption 250W (Standard)
205W (ECO)
Approvals UL, cUL, IEC
Audible Noise 25 dB
Operating Temperature 41°F ~ 95°F (5°C ~ 35°C)
Projection Lens Lamp Type 200W UHP
Lamp Life 3000 hrs
Projection Mode Front, Rear, Ceiling
Projection Screen Size (Diagonal) 40in. ~ 300in. (101.6cm ~ 762cm)
Throw Distance 4.27ft. ~ 32.48ft. (1.3m ~ 9.9m)
Throw Ratio 1.62:1
Vertical Keystone Correction +/- 20 Degrees
Brightness Uniformity 85%
Other Dot Clock 140 MHz
H-Sync Range 15 ~ 100 kHz
V-Sync Range 50 ~ 100 Hz
In The Box Items Quick Start Guide
Owner's Manual on CD-ROM
AC Power Cord
VGA type Computer Input Cable (HD15 ~ HD15)
Wireless Remote Control & Batteries (AA x 2)
Warranty Projector 3 Year Warranty
Lamp 90 Day Warranty

EIKI LC-XA20 3LCD Projector Accessories
Description MfPN MSRP
0183-5004 Case 0183-5004 $49.00
__________________
Richard C Patchett

RC's Classic Collections On 16mm
Parts & Service Forum members price $800.00 Plus Mailing

Something often misunderstood for video projectors is the relation of the distance of the screen from the projector and the width horizontal of the screen. 16mm film proctors using a 2-inch lens have a picture width of 4'-8" at the screen. With a 1-inch lens the screen image is 9'-4". A video projector having a throw ratio of 1.62 will be at 75-inches from the screen with 120-inch width. You might want to consider if this is acceptable for your outdoor movie showings. If you like your equipment further from the screen the projector may need to have more lumens and a variable focal length lens (throw ratio) for best screen image in your situation.

--------------------
RC’s Classic Collection
16 mm Parts & Service
Elmo, Eiki, Bell & Howell +
http://www.rcsclassic16mm.com/

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Christopher P Quinn
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 210
From: Bedfordshire
Registered: Sep 2008


 - posted November 14, 2009 12:27 AM      Profile for Christopher P Quinn   Email Christopher P Quinn   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It looks like LED technology will eventually be the way to go, although some more work on them is required before i would spend that sought of dough. I like the increase in lens shift on the Vivitek, DLP machines usually have almost a fixed lens compared to LCD's, another reason that would keep me to LCD's at this moment in time. [Frown]

When TV's become as thin as our roll up screens and as big, what will happen then?

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Chris Quinn Rides again.

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Barry Johnson
Master Film Handler

Posts: 358
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jul 2003


 - posted November 17, 2009 07:11 AM      Profile for Barry Johnson   Author's Homepage   Email Barry Johnson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Now,being one for a bargain,I have got news of older technology as regards video projection.
The machine is a fully reconditioned and engineer serviced BarcoData 701 crt projector and has factory spares backup at not too silly prices.The projector is affordable and would suit me for that area of home cinema.Now I have seen these things operating and they really shine.So,fellow enthusiasts,its very affordable and spotlessly clean and internally dust free.What would you do?? [Confused]

PS
Forgerrit guys-just bought an Hitachi single lens LCD instead. [Cool]

[ November 17, 2009, 08:12 AM: Message edited by: Barry Johnson ]

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Standard8 rules!!

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Martin Jones
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1269
From: Thetford , Norfolk,England
Registered: May 2008


 - posted November 17, 2009 08:15 AM      Profile for Martin Jones   Email Martin Jones   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Barry,
With my engineer hat on I make one observation... if it is a 3 CRT machine be sure you see it demonstrated on the screen size AND throw you will use, preferably on the actual screen. This is because the three CRTs need to be converged and focussed for a particular set-up. If there is a rake angle involved, that needs to be allowed for too. If your set-up is variable, you will need explicit instructions in making adjustments, or colour mus-registration will be a problem.
Martin

--------------------
Retired TV Service Engineer
Ongoing interest in Telecine....

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Barry Johnson
Master Film Handler

Posts: 358
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jul 2003


 - posted November 17, 2009 01:04 PM      Profile for Barry Johnson   Author's Homepage   Email Barry Johnson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Martin: Right on the button there mate.The convergence anomalies with these super machines is what changed my mind ultimately.So thats why I have plumed for the LCD single lens Hitachi with a new lamp even!
Thank you for your input.
Barry.

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Standard8 rules!!

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 6916
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted November 17, 2009 05:34 PM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I thought you'd like to know I've made a decision here:

Epson, Panasonic, Epson, Panasonic, Epson, Panasonic...

and the Winner is:

ELMO (ST-1200HD)

(Old dogs, new tricks, I guess!)

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Barry Johnson
Master Film Handler

Posts: 358
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jul 2003


 - posted November 18, 2009 06:53 AM      Profile for Barry Johnson   Author's Homepage   Email Barry Johnson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well Steve,if you put it like that...........currently in use in my film room are:Toei Talkie R8sound,B&H606H R8silent,Ampro New Educational (new!!!!??)16mm sound,B&H TQIII 16mm mag/opt and a common or garden Elmo ST1200HDmag/opt super8.I reckon thatqualifies me as a genuine "Film" user.
I realised one day thay VP would arrive to add yet another dimension,hence the Hitachi.
All I have to do now is put that larger screen up...........
With regards,Barry.

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Standard8 rules!!

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Damien Taylor
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 111
From: Perth, Western Australia
Registered: Oct 2008


 - posted November 18, 2009 07:28 AM      Profile for Damien Taylor   Email Damien Taylor   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Can't the CRTs be realigned once in place?

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