8mm Forum: Film Cleaning Can Damage Film

This is topic Film Cleaning Can Damage Film in forum 8mm Forum at 8mm Forum.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=008175

Posted by Laksmi Breathwaite (Member # 2320) on May 16, 2013, 10:42 AM:

Film Cleaning can damage your film? Did you know this ? Here are a few comments I was told by experts that have been in the hobby for over 40 years. By cleaning film using any method you are rolling the dice on weather you will scratch a print with new dirt or from dirt that is already present on the film in one area and now loosened by your cleaner and moved across the print. That is why they have professional ultra sound cleaners to clean film without touching the print with material and cleaner or solvents! Simply a word to the wise. Chances are you scratched your prints cleaning them. More information is be very careful cleaning a print with cloth wipes because if a speck of dirt gets trapped in the cloth it will put a green line on a print. Never clean a print before viewing it. You should only spot clean a print if it has a spot of dirt on it. Never run a entire length of film thru a cloth and film cleaner. That is a sure fire way to scratch it. More damage is done to a print by people who think they are cleaning it. Best advice "Let it Be". Cleaners do more damage than good to a print. The smaller size films like 8mm and super 8mm scratch very easily, mainly because the equipment on the market to show the smaller size films are generally auto load projectors and are built below standard. Scratched prints were probably run on an auto load super 8 projector to have gotten any green scratches. The only projector I would run 16mm films for example on a Kodak pageant. All the pageants are manual threading machines and are known to be very gentle on films. Kodak Pageants were nicknamed The Protector Projector because they handle all conditions of 16mm films without damaging them. Tell me guys what are your comments about all this info?

Posted by Julian Baquero (Member # 2520) on May 16, 2013, 11:43 AM:

Thanks for this information Laksmi, I always had my doubts about cleaning my films. A green emulsion line is far worst than a speck of dirt. Do cleaning agents have some effect on the film emulsion?

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on May 16, 2013, 11:44 AM:

Hi Laksmi,well I have been handling film now for nearly 45 years
and have never experienced any damage by appling a lubricant
to the film proper.I used to use a soft cloth at first but soon
changed to chamois leather, as this doesn't leave fluff.The green
marks I would suspect have been acquired from the projector
used, as I have not experienced serious scratches of this nature from applying
a liquid cleaner/lubricant. Even Derek Simmonds advocated the
purchaser of a film to give it a treatment before projection,as this eradicated the "green print" judder and helped prevent
scratching, and Derek as you know,cut his teeth as an "old school" film projectionist.No I feel it safe to say that as long as
you follow the instructions applying the liquid,and change the
surface you're applying it with,there should be no problems.
If the print is very dirty,then I have found that passing it between two clean paint brushes will take off any surface muck
before application of a cleaner.The main cause of any film damage is down to the machine.Back in the early '70's, some
film libraries were seriously considering not hiring out s/8 prints
on account of the new films coming back ruined, the same did not apply to standard 8mm.The odds on film scratches are
increased everytime a film is projected.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on May 16, 2013, 11:58 AM:

There is an argument that wearing a seatbelt can get you killed if it keeps someone from getting you out of a burning car.

-by the same token a lot more people get killed slamming into windshields than burning up in cars because they are trapped by their seatbelts.

So clean your films or not: no guarantees either way. You need to figure out what the odds are and take it from there.

(..and change the cloth often too!)

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on May 16, 2013, 12:47 PM:

I think we should not forget the other reason to clean your films periodically, and that is the need to lubricate and prevent shrinkage. I do not use commercial film cleaners because I am concerned about health issues from volatiles. That's just me. So I use Armorall wipes which I have found do a pretty good job of cleaning and masking light scratches. And these wipes also lubricate and recondition the film base to help eliminate shrinkage and embrittlement. I have used Armorall on the dash of my '93 Honda Accord for the past 20 years, and the dash is just like new, which is really saying something in the Florida heat and sunshine. So I figure what is good for my car dash is also good for my films, and so far (15 years) it has worked out very well for me with no adverse effects - just clean, smoother running, prints.

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on May 16, 2013, 12:53 PM:

......and a very happy motorist.

Posted by Vidar Olavesen (Member # 3354) on May 16, 2013, 12:57 PM:

Is that something like this?
http://www.handyhardware.ie/product/21089/Protectant-300ml

If not, can you link to a place selling?

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on May 16, 2013, 01:01 PM:

Personally, I've never seen the need to apply any chemical at all to my prints unless they need it. The idea of cleaning every print one acquires as a matter of course sounds totally unnecessary to me.

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on May 16, 2013, 01:56 PM:

Sometimes a "raw" 8mm print straight from the labs,usually a
B/W print does need a lube,not so much in 16mm,but definately
8mm Michael, as they do tend to judder in projection.

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on May 16, 2013, 02:16 PM:

You may be right, Hugh. I'm more familiar with 16. I know there are some collectors who clean every print they buy whether or not it's needed.

Posted by Roy Neil (Member # 913) on May 16, 2013, 02:17 PM:

While I agree with the topic of this thread I can not say I heartily agree with the substance of your message Laksmi.

I manufacture a film cleaning system called "Film-O-Clean" - which is designed to be used constantly - meaning it is completely safe to use each time a film is projected.

Cleaning the film as it is projected:

- Lubricates the print and prevents excessive wear which leads to scratches

- Cleans the print which prevents not only hairs in the gate, but also works to prevent the accumulation of debris within the projector ( especially the gate )

- The film is cleaner than the last time you watched it, automatically. Unless of course it has no debris at all in which case it works to keep it in that pristine condition.

- Wet gate projection will hide base scratches by removing the debris from the scratch, then, leaving the void filled with a miniscule amount of fluid ( FilmGuard primarily )

- The cleaning media is constantly advancing, automatically, so fresh media is always in contact with the film. Likewise, dirt from the head will never touch the tail - unlike cleaning with a " t-shirt " or " webril "

- The cleaning media is manufactured by FilmTech is is soft enough to clean lenses without harming the lens coating.

Film-O-Clean has been tested by not only myself, but also Wittner-Cinetec - and our own Doug Meltzer provided a wonderful review here on this forum

Doug Meltzer's Film-O-Clean Review

Likewise there are others

http://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000622

http://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=006228

http://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=007250

Here is one of several videos on YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OavNILdp3IU

Film-O-Clean is more than three years old - with not a single complaint nor request for refund/return.

Wittner-Cinetec performed independent testing of Film-O-Clean and verified that not only will it not damage film but that it is the best method for cleaning film bar none.

So .. while I agree that cleaning film improperly can and will damage film - I do not agree that cleaning film is detrimental to the film, I would state the opposite - that not cleaning film is a fantastic way to:

- Damage film while projecting
- Spread dirt from print to print
- Cause excess wear to the projector ( especially gate )
- Cause debris to accumulate within the projector
- and likely more pitfalls I am not considering at the moment

Granted, as a manufacturer - I am bound to be biased toward my own product - so I will ask and encourage others who have used Film-O-Clean to please share your own information and experiences. I feel this is important lest false or misleading information make its way into the books as 'fact'

Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on May 16, 2013, 02:32 PM:

Laksmi,

I completely disagree with the quotes you opened this thread with. I will never run a film in my projector that I have not cleaned.

Like Hugh, in over forty years of handling film I have never once scratched a print by applying a cleaner/lubricant. I clean 8mm on hand-operated rewinds and change the cloth often. I would think one would have to apply quite a bit of pressure to the cloth to cause an emulsion scratch and also be winding quickly or using a motorized rewind. By going slowly and squeezing the cleaning cloth lightly, you can feel if there is dirt piling up and that it's time for a replacement.

Green prints should be lubricated, not only for the judder but also a coating will help protect your print in the film gate where those savage celluloid scratching specks are situated. Sorry about all those s words.....I'm still suffering from a severe case of alliteration sickness.

Once I clean a print I don't feel the need to clean it again for years & years, however Roy's Film-O-Clean is like a gentle booster shot for films at every screening.

Doug

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on May 16, 2013, 02:39 PM:

Not to mention that clean lubricated prints dramatically reduce magnetic sound head wear.

Posted by Bill Brandenstein (Member # 892) on May 16, 2013, 06:23 PM:

I wish a Film-O-Clean were in my budget.

I concur. Improper cleaning and handling can damage film, without a doubt. However, I've never damaged a film unless significant excess pressure was used, in combination with a situation where lubrication was needed. And it was really, really tough to do.

Laksmi, I really don't think the green scratch will happen from a cloth very easily because the particles will take the path of least resistance - which is into the fibers of the cloth. Very different from the unforgiving metal parts of a film gate. A green scratch from a cloth means WAY too much pressure and no lubrication.

It's not too hard, with a loupe under a bright light, to see minor surface abrasions.

Scariest thing I ever did was to "clear" a never-run polyester film (which scratches more easily than acetate) that had been treated years ago with Surfaset - leaving a thick waxy residue - by wiping it down with cotton cloth to make it "transparent" again. It took a crazy amount of pressure and passes to buff it down. Yet, no scratches, film is gorgeous, lubrication will last for many years. (The long lab leaders were VERY helpful for testing!)

Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on May 16, 2013, 07:14 PM:

Now....how can I convince the wife to let me buy one? [Roll Eyes]

Looked at Doug photos and the you-tube video....brilliant, when you think of the money spent on film, it would be nuts not to buy one of Roy amazing machine. It looks so professional [Cool]

bolted on the front of the projector. The thing is, friction causes wear on the film in the gate and on sound head etc. What Roy has made, takes "care" of your films for many years to come....

What I have done in the past is to use "hand winders" as far apart as possible and very gently hold the film between fingers using old baby nappies "yes they are soft" left over from years gone by [Smile]

...with some "Thermofilm" when you could get it...and thats it. I never used the projector for rewinding films either, it was always done by hand.

Graham.

Posted by Laksmi Breathwaite (Member # 2320) on May 16, 2013, 09:07 PM:

Hey Guys I have been cleaning films for over 40 years and my Elmo SC-18 has never felled me yet knock on wood. I never saw a green scratch that it ever produced ,it is as gentle as a babies bottom on my films.It was only a topic for discussion. [Smile]

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on May 16, 2013, 09:12 PM:

Laksmi - I'm puzzled with regard to where you found these experts. Like Doug and others, I completely disagree with them. I have cleaned and/or lubricated countless films and never scratched one by doing so. If I was scratching them, I would obviously notice the scratches upon projection and reconsider the wisdom of cleaning. I have occasionally cleaned 16mm prints that have soon left a cloth covered in dirt - how on earth would I "spot clean" such a film? Finally, the person who said that he would only run 16mm on Kodak Pageants really is talking complete nonsense and has clearly never used a modern Eiki, which I know from experience will not scratch films unless there's some sort of mechanical problem. Overall, I'd say that film collectors would be far better off ignoring their advice than following it!

Posted by Laksmi Breathwaite (Member # 2320) on May 16, 2013, 09:37 PM:

Okay Adrian, The guy is on eBay that gave me this info he has been in the hobby for 45 years. I though I would pass on the info. His name is Ed Greene and was selling 16mm prints of Disney and was one of their animators he is not a member of this forum. http://www.ebay.com/itm/121110694531?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on May 17, 2013, 03:06 AM:

I completely agree with Adrian Laksmi,if you've been suffering
any scratches on your films, and by the sound of it,these green
and blue marks are serious defects.I don't think that damage as serious as that could be done by wiping with a wet rag,anyway
the scratch would "weave" and not be in one place consistantly.
A simple test,and one we can all do periodically,is to make a loop
of coloured waste film and run it for an hour or so in the projector
then examine for marks.I say again,that Elmo, with the plastic guides will eventually wear with use and mark film,a sad fact
but true, and yours will be no exception Laksmi.It's been done
to death on this forum,but the plastic by its nature will wear
and then the fun starts.I did send you print offs from mags
that identified the parts that cause the "aggro",but alas they
can't be replaced now.

Posted by Lee Mannering (Member # 728) on May 17, 2013, 03:14 AM:

40+ years cleaning what must amount to miles of acetate and Poly film by hand using a lint free cloth and I dont see any scratches. As it says on the tin 'use a lint free cloth' [Cool]

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on May 17, 2013, 04:43 AM:

At one time in all the projection rooms where I worked we had a Premier Film Waxer.
Being first run cinemas our films often came direct from the labs and were "green". Waxing helped them run through the projectors without any stability problems.
The waxers slid into a slot on the Premier 2000' rewinds and applied wax to the perforation areas only. On each side were slots which held the strips of wax, at the top was a weight which applied constant pressure as the strips wore down.
I should add that this device was for green prints and in no way did they clean, after all, the film was new!

Posted by David Ollerearnshaw (Member # 3296) on May 17, 2013, 05:19 AM:

Just to add my little bit. When I was buying new prints on super 8 I remember having a few that juddered on projection. On contacting the companies to ask why. They said its because its a "greenprint" use some 2.22 to lubricate them. It worked fine, and they went through quieter too. These prints were bought from "Powell Films" "Derann Films" and "Walton Films". Walton films were sometimes rough around the 'edges' where they were slit to 8mm.

16mm I usually check these once, but I found that almost all required cleaning of some sort.

I bought a 'ECCO' bench mounted cleaner

I use my 'Spondon' 6000ft powered arms to slowly take the film through, pulling the cloth cleaning rolls every few minutes to give a new surface. Quite amazing how much dirt does come off.

Also remember if you don't clean your films the dirt will go into your projector film path. This will cause other films to pick up the dirt and possibly scratches too.

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on May 17, 2013, 07:17 AM:

I've got to say David, that the worst of the bunch were Derann
for a time with badly slit film that caused bad sideways weave.
Thankfully they sorted that one.I agree that 2.22 was a great
product and helped protect my films for many years, and was
good at hiding certain light marks.

Posted by Maurizio Di Cintio (Member # 144) on May 17, 2013, 08:10 AM:

Excuse me: what is 2.22?
Thankx

Posted by Laksmi Breathwaite (Member # 2320) on May 17, 2013, 10:38 AM:

Hugh I still state that the marks were on the film when I bought them and films I already own have no marks. My Elmo has not marked my films yet? But every film gets marks when over used I guess? But over cleaned?

Posted by David Ollerearnshaw (Member # 3296) on May 17, 2013, 11:13 AM:

Maurizio, 2.22 was a film cleaner made by Kanus Chemicals UK. Long out of production though.

I have some films that were treated with it over 15 years ago and you can still feel the lubricating effect.

DCR Films used to treat all his new films with it. Another gentleman no longer with us. Name bye the way Dave West.

Posted by Gary Crawford (Member # 67) on May 17, 2013, 11:23 AM:

I know this is going to sound strange and may open up a whole new can of worms...but here goes. One example. I loaned a print of Charlie Chan at Treasure Island to someone. Before mailing it, I did not clean it..BUT I did clean it the last time it was out of the can..the last time I showed it. It was clean when it went in. Well, when this fellow , who also is a film expert, returned it, he also included a cloth...realy dirty cloth. He had cleaned the film before showing it and it had , over several years, gotten dirty INSIDE the can. The can has some air holes. Evidently there was enough dirt in the air ..and possibly some electrical differences that may have attracted the dirt in. AND I know it was cleaned very well before going into the can. How the dirt got into the winds of the film, I don't know. To verify, I took another film that had been stored for over two years....cleaned before it's last showing....(yes, the pageants were clean)....and sure enough...
LOTs of dirt came off in the cleaning again. not big particles, but blackish stuff...AND no...we don't smoke..so it's not that.
so....I've learned....I'm going to clean before showing films...especially before showing to audiences.
The end.

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on May 17, 2013, 12:18 PM:

I hope they don't Laksmi,I speak from bitter experience.
2.22 ( TWO TWENTY TWO) was a liquid film cleaner/lubricant
that actually "did what it said on the tin",it was manufactured by Kanus Chemicals,who also made other products, and was very
similar to Thermofilm when it was manufactured by Gemini, in
the days before the global warming gang started their antics, and
interfered in the chemical formula used.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on May 17, 2013, 12:40 PM:

I will say that it is possible to damage a film with film cleaner if ....

The emulsion layers are very brittle. However, if they are very brittle, even taking a cloth rag will end up causing the film to "flake" and if the print is that close to expiration, best leave it "uncleaned" and enjoy it for a s long as possible.

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on May 17, 2013, 12:51 PM:

If there is emulsion shed Osi,best to have it come off on a rag
than in the projector where it will scratch your film.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on May 17, 2013, 01:12 PM:

Very true, Hugh! It's one of the few annoyances with projection. You film clean a film, then project it, forgetting that perhaps the projector isn't as clean as the film, but boy, now your film print isn't clean all over again! (rrrr!) Nice bit of posts!

UBB.classic^TM 6.3.1.2