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Author Topic: Product Review: Film-O-Clean
Douglas Meltzer
Moderator

Posts: 4269
From: New York, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 29, 2010 11:56 AM      Profile for Douglas Meltzer   Email Douglas Meltzer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
For years I’ve been jealous of large format projectionists who were able to use a Kelmar style film cleaner not only to clean and protect the print but also for wet gate projection. Wet gate projection can make base scratches appear less noticeable as the fluid fills in the scratches and reduces the light scatter.

When I first started to collect 8mm films back in the 1970s, there were very few cleaning systems available. The Ecco 306 (There were a few different model numbers for this product) was for use on a rewind bench, with cleaning solution automatically applied to felt pads which would then dampen the cleaning flannel underneath it. The film (from 8mm to 35mm) would pass between the double sided flannel and the operator would have to manually pull more flannel from the feed roll as it became dirty.

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Certain Goko editors had an accessory shoe where one could attach the Goko Film Cleaner, a small device with a roller and upper and lower felt pads that were to be moistened with a single drop of liquid film cleaner. The pads could clean a small amount of footage before having to be replaced. Goko also manufactured the same product for Elmo.

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The Lindau Electrostatic Film Cleaner, positioned so that the film came off the feed reel and ran through “static charged bristles” before going through the projector, claimed to remove dust and dirt “electro-magnetically”.

I ended up simply using film cleaner applied to a felt cloth held between my thumb and forefinger while winding the film on a home made rewind bench. That was fine for cleaning and lubricating, but I had to put my dream of wet gate projection aside (No jokes about wet dreams, please).

In early October 2008, Roy Neil started a thread entitled “Anyone want a film cleaner?". Roy was about to begin constructing a Kelmar style film cleaner for his own use and he wanted feedback from Forum members about the possibility of making it available for sale. With many positive replies, He started working on the design. In February 2009 Roy posted that “Brand new Kelmar units sell in excess of $700 and after the last 3 months of work designing and testing the prototype for production, it’s easy to see why. Gearboxes must be engineered to strict tolerances or the gears wont mesh properly. In this instance I have to maintain gear spacing to a tolerance of +/- 0.002".
On May 5, 2009 Roy announced that the “Film-O-Clean” was ready. I purchased the Super 8mm version (Roy had also made a 16mm model).

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When I first took Film-O-Clean out of the box, I was pleasantly surprised by the high quality machining and metalwork. The unit looks great. The Film-O-Clean can be used on a bench for cleaning between rewinds or the unit can be mounted onto a projector using the optional Handle Clamp and Extension. I was anxious to see how effective the Film-O-Clean would be at wet gate projection, so I set it up on my Elmo GS-1200.

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The clamp fits over the projector handle and is fastened by tightening two front bolts and a single rear bolt.

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The Extension arm attaches to the Handle Clamp.

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The Adaptor is placed on the end of the Extension.

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Finally, the Film-O-Clean is secured onto the Adaptor.

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I think there's room for just one more film.....

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Douglas Meltzer
Moderator

Posts: 4269
From: New York, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 29, 2010 11:56 AM      Profile for Douglas Meltzer   Email Douglas Meltzer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Figuring out the best position to attach the clamp and the support onto the Elmo’s handle was the only difficult moment I had in using the Film-O-Clean. I had to read that section of the operator handbook a number of times to figure out the correct mounting procedure. I wish the handbook’s pictures were larger and gave a closer view. Two rolls of Cleaning Media were already installed on the spindles, but the handbook gives clear directions on how to do this when it’s time to change rolls, although again I wish there were more close-up photos of this series of steps.

For wet gate projection, the handbook recommends using FilmGuard (which is the cleaning solution that I use) and following the manufacturer’s directions for application.

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This method is to take the spray bottle of FilmGuard and while holding the sprayer tip against the media pads, spray the cleaner onto the pads until they are soaked.

Threading Film-O-Clean could not be simpler. The film goes through the upper roller, around the drive wheel, over one cleaning roller, under the other and finally through the output roller. In a matter of seconds, I was ready to try it out!

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Film-O-Clean operates automatically as the film advances. The movement of the film rotates the drive wheel, which in turn advances the cleaning media so that the film is always in contact with fresh media. The two lint-free rolls remove dirt from both sides and (when soaked) lubricate the film right before it enters the projector’s film path.

To test out Film-O-Clean’s effect on scratches, I first took screen photos of prints running through the projector without using Film-O-Clean. Then I tried Roy’s new device. The results were quite pronounced.

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A

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B

In photo A from the Columbia 200’ digest of “Fail-Safe” there are three scratches on the left side and a scratch running down Henry Fonda’s left eye. In Photo B, the Film-O-Clean has lubricated the film enough so that the scratches practically disappear.

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C

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In photo C from the same film, there is a thick scratch (yes, this was an eBay purchase!) just left of center. With wet gate projection, the scratch has almost disappeared.

[ February 02, 2010, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: Douglas Meltzer ]

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I think there's room for just one more film.....

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Douglas Meltzer
Moderator

Posts: 4269
From: New York, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 29, 2010 11:57 AM      Profile for Douglas Meltzer   Email Douglas Meltzer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
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In this screen capture from the Marketing International feature release of “Grease”, there is an emulsion scratch over Ms. Newton-John’s right shoulder and a few black lines on Mr. Travolta’s back.

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Film-O-Clean gets rid of the black lines, but (as expected) has hardly any effect on the green scratch.

Film-O-Clean worked amazingly well on the GS-1200 which has a fixed handle, but I was curious as to whether the Handle Clamp would work properly on folding hinged handles, such as those atop the Bauer T510. It took a bit of trial and error to figure out the best way to fasten the unit to the projector. Unlike the Elmo GS or ST where the extension arm attaches to the right side of the clamp, I had to put the extension on the outside left of the clamp to align properly with the film path of the Bauer. The placement of the clamp and the support prevents the Bauer’s handle from folding in and the Film-O-Clean was just as secure as when mounted on the GS. I covered the handle with a soft cloth so as not to scratch it. I would suggest taping over the corners of the clamps and support as well so as not to scuff the top of your projector.

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I probably won’t be using Film-O-Clean on the rewind bench too often. Before I screen a film for the first time, I like to hand clean, which is the best way to check for sprocket damage, bad splices, loose sound stripe and the occasional staple! In the past, if I had not screened a previously cleaned film for a few years, I would clean it again on the bench before threading it up. With Film-O-Clean, I can just watch it right away knowing that any dirt will be removed before the film ever reaches the gate. Lubricating the film also helps reduce sound head wear. As someone who cleans the projector before each use, I’ve noticed that the film path stays cleaner for a longer period since I began using Film-O-Clean.

For those who project both Super 8mm and 16mm, Roy offers a16mm conversion kit, which includes 16mm rollers and a 16mm Drive wheel. Film-O-Clean comes with 2 rolls of cleaning media, which provide approximately 3-4 hours of cleaning time for 16mm and 6-8 hours for Super 8. You have the option of rewinding the media for reuse, but I feel more comfortable with starting a new roll. A Universal Bracket is also available for anchoring Film-O-Clean to a sturdy surface, such as large pedestal projectors or a rewind bench.

Current pricing is $249.95 for just the unit and $299.95 for a bundle that includes the unit and the clamp system. This is remarkable considering the price of a Kelmar cleaner is $700.00 without mounting brackets or adaptor plates.

Film-O-Clean is an unqualified success. Wet gate projection enhances the image on the screen, protects your valuable print and will help in the maintenance of your projector. I find it astonishing that over three decades past the peak of Super 8mm, there’s a wonderful new device on the market. Thank you Roy!

In the US and UK, Film-O-Clean is available online at http://www.film-supply.com/. EU sales are handled by Wittner-Cinetec at http://www.wittner-cinetec.com/.

Doug

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I think there's room for just one more film.....

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Flavio Stabile
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 702
From: Roma, Italia
Registered: Feb 2005


 - posted January 29, 2010 12:06 PM      Profile for Flavio Stabile   Email Flavio Stabile   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Doug,

that's a very interesting MULTI-POST review and I would like to say thank you for your great explanation!

I would like to add the I recently (about two weeks ago) contacted the web site you mention and, in reply to my email I've been contacted by Wittner from Germany telling me they are now the only supplier in Europe for Film-O-Clean.
They added they will be able to supply it in a few weeks and will insert it in their on-line catalogue!

Instead they will not supply FilmGuard and I was wondering if I can use instead FilmRenew.

Thanks
Flavio

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Douglas Meltzer
Moderator

Posts: 4269
From: New York, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 29, 2010 12:24 PM      Profile for Douglas Meltzer   Email Douglas Meltzer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Flavio,

You are very welcome! I think that's great news about Wittner.

As for your question, the Film-O-Clean Operator Handbook states:

IMPORTANT: Highly evaporative film cleaning solutions are NOT
recommended for use in Wet-Gate projection. The toxic fumes associated
with highly evaporative cleaning solutions require extensive ventilation for
use within an enclosed projection booth. Film cleaning solutions such as
FilmRenew™ are best used between rewinds and with adequate ventilation.

Doug

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I think there's room for just one more film.....

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Dino Everette
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1526
From: Long Beach, CA USA
Registered: Dec 2008


 - posted January 29, 2010 12:36 PM      Profile for Dino Everette   Email Dino Everette   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
one question? i have a dog and 2 cats in my condo and, therfore i don' t have a secured booth to run my projectors. does the film guard drip or spray around as the show is running? i just don't want drips and drops to be on the counter or elsewhere for them to lick...

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"You're too Far Out Miss Lawrence"

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Douglas Meltzer
Moderator

Posts: 4269
From: New York, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 29, 2010 12:46 PM      Profile for Douglas Meltzer   Email Douglas Meltzer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dino,

I haven't encountered any dripping during projection. The cleaning rolls are very absorbent. When I first spray the rolls I hold a cloth underneath just to be safe. After the screening, I store Film-O-Clean in a sealed plastic bag so that the rolls won't dry out. I apply a little more before the next use.

Doug

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I think there's room for just one more film.....

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Gian Luca Mario Loncrini
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1948
From: Verona (Italy)
Registered: Jan 2009


 - posted January 29, 2010 12:57 PM      Profile for Gian Luca Mario Loncrini   Author's Homepage   Email Gian Luca Mario Loncrini   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Wow!

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I remember when I was (super) 8 years old...

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 6450
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 29, 2010 02:37 PM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Excellent Stuff, Doug!

That's one of the deficits of this hobby: not enough new gear to drool over. (No angst over having "last year's model" either.)

-at last a product review, especially one that doesn't include the phrase "and if you can find one in good condition...".

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Graham Ritchie
Film God

Posts: 3569
From: New Zealand
Registered: Feb 2006


 - posted January 29, 2010 07:03 PM      Profile for Graham Ritchie   Email Graham Ritchie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks Doug

That made a very interesting read, an excellent review of an excellent product, I liked the idea of the 16mm conversion kit for those that are using both 8mm and 16mm film.

Graham.

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Joe Taffis
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1479
From: United States
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 29, 2010 07:53 PM      Profile for Joe Taffis   Email Joe Taffis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Doug, an absolutely great review! you answered many of the questions in my mind about this item, which I'm starting to think of as a necessity. I'll be contacting Roy soon! [Smile]

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Joe Taffis

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Roy Neil
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 203
From: Menlo Park, CA
Registered: Sep 2007


 - posted January 31, 2010 11:22 PM      Profile for Roy Neil   Author's Homepage   Email Roy Neil   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Doug - That is an exceptionally thorough and highly professional review .. I am not just impressed I am blown away !

Photographs are very well done, great angles, very clear, sharp detail - terrific history ( I didnt know about the anti-static cleaner ) - absolutely brilliant before/after photos

In fact those before/after photos are downright fantastic. I just hope everyone doesnt start thinking Film-O-Clean is a miracle machine .. although .. it 'is' a miracle machine. Its a miracle I got it done given the design considerations, tight budget and very tight production tolerances - not to mention the miraculously low price point.

I sent Doug a couple of extra items with his Film-O-Clean, so Im guessing he knew that once I saw the 'huge effort' he put into creating this review that I would be guiltified into rewarding him ...

He was right.

I have hereby 'drafted' Doug as the official Film-O-Clean-Photograph-Taker-Person ! ( *applause* )

This means I have to send him every product we manufacture ( and yes we will be releasing our next new product shortly .. annoucements forthcoming )

The Film-O-Clean pictured here is the Mk I version which is no longer in production. So I will be boxing up a brand new Film-O-Clean Mk II complete with all mounting fixtures and accessories and sending that off to him asap... and maybe a prototype of our new product if it is ready.

I guess that means Doug gets to compare the Mk I to the Mk II next and show everyone the improvements - along with the new mounting fixtures and accessories

[Smile]

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Alan Rik
Film God

Posts: 2204
From: New York City, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted February 01, 2010 07:26 AM      Profile for Alan Rik   Email Alan Rik   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That is a very, very good review Mr. Moderator.
When I worked at Crest Film in Hollywood we had a huge machine just like that. It was called the "Supersonic" cleaner. Nice name right? But the film went into a tank that was filled with Trichloroethane. I think that's now an illegal substance. But the idea was the same. Rollers, rollers, etc.
Great review. Does it put any more stress on the motors of the machine?

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Greg Marshall
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 612
From: Nashville, TN USA
Registered: Sep 2008


 - posted February 01, 2010 05:44 PM      Profile for Greg Marshall   Email Greg Marshall   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I used a device that works on that same concept when I worked in theatres. We either attached it on the platter, or right above the DTS or Dolby Digital readers, depending on the brand. It worked quite well, but I am REALLY impressed by the wet gate choice here.... it is like magic that those black lines just dissappear. I must have one of these... that's amazing! Gotta allocate some funds for that!

Thanks, Doug!!!!! Great review!

Greg

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Wayne Tuell
Master Film Handler

Posts: 488
From: Minden, NV
Registered: Jul 2009


 - posted February 02, 2010 10:05 AM      Profile for Wayne Tuell   Author's Homepage   Email Wayne Tuell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dino: ( from Johnny Bench ) NO runs, NO drips, NO errors. I have my digital projector directly under my film-o-clean. Filmguard won't splatter. The only way that would be possible is if you were to use more filmguard than the media can hold.

Doug: FANTASTIC review with before and after pictures. I am impressed on how your thin black lines vanished in "FAIL SAFE" on the first pass. It usually takes more than one pass for me with 16mm prints. Question: Do you always spray the take-up rolls with filmguard instead of the feed rolls as you have pictured? [Razz]

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www.16mmDrive-InFilms.com

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Douglas Meltzer
Moderator

Posts: 4269
From: New York, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted February 02, 2010 10:59 AM      Profile for Douglas Meltzer   Email Douglas Meltzer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Wayne,

Err...umm.....maybe that was for running the film in reverse. Thank you for noticing that mistake! I realized at the last minute that I needed an application picture so I took that one in a hurry. Even the inventor didn't pick up on it! I have just replaced that shot.

Wayne's excellent review of Film-O-Clean is in the latest issue of "The Reel Image". Every member of this Forum should have a subscription to this terrific magazine (available by calling 937-296-9036)!

Also......please remember that these pictures are lo-res for uploading purposes. While Film-O-Clean does indeed make black lines practically disappear, you might see a faint trace if you were staring hard!

Doug

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I think there's room for just one more film.....

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Shawn DePriest
Junior
Posts: 2
From: Vista
Registered: Jan 2010


 - posted February 28, 2010 02:31 AM      Profile for Shawn DePriest   Email Shawn DePriest   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks Doug!

As one of the newer members to the forum, it's great to see the spirit of sharing alive and well, not only with this review you have provided - but with the nature of this entire forum! Thanks to all for the info you share, and thanks to Roy for developing such an awesome product!

A Couple of questions...

1. I couldn't help but notice that your blacks have been reduced in the second (wet gate) comparison photos. Is it because of different settings on your camera the second time around?

2. Was "Fail-Safe" previously cleaned with FilmGuard prior to running it through the Film-O-Clean on the projector, or was this the first cleaning? I've been wondering how well FilmGuard itself fills scratches on the film, and how much is due to the "wetness" of the wet get.

Thanks so much!

Shawn DePriest
Director of Toasterhead
www.toasterhead.com

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Editing my first super 8 feature, "Toasterhead"

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Douglas Meltzer
Moderator

Posts: 4269
From: New York, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted February 28, 2010 10:52 AM      Profile for Douglas Meltzer   Email Douglas Meltzer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Shawn,

Welcome to the Forum! Thanks for the kind words.

My camera settings were on automatic (with a high shutter speed), so there could be some difference in exposure between the before and after shots. I don't notice any difference in the blacks when I'm screening.

According to my notes (I keep a record of cleanings) "Fail-Safe" was cleaned with FilmGuard when I first got the film in 9/08. I did not clean it again when I did the test with Film-O-Clean on 11/20/09.

Without using Film-O-Clean, FilmGuard does fill in some scratches but that works best if you screen the print right after application. It's not as effective as running through Roy's device seconds before it reaches the gate.

You bring up an interesting point. Film-O-Clean can be used with practically any cleaner/lubricant on the market. Perhaps someone can do a test to see how the others work at wet gate projection.

Doug

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I think there's room for just one more film.....

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Roy Neil
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 203
From: Menlo Park, CA
Registered: Sep 2007


 - posted February 28, 2010 05:01 PM      Profile for Roy Neil   Author's Homepage   Email Roy Neil   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Wittner-Cinetec has tested Film-O-Clean using 'no' cleaning fluid; using FilmGuard; using FilmRenew; using VitaFilm - each with entirely satisfactory results.

I cannot recommend using 'any' highly evaporative fluid during projection unless adequate ventilation is provided.

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Dino Everette
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1526
From: Long Beach, CA USA
Registered: Dec 2008


 - posted March 01, 2010 04:15 PM      Profile for Dino Everette   Email Dino Everette   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Those tests are really great to know, and will help me when I can finally get one.... [Smile]

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"You're too Far Out Miss Lawrence"

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Roy Neil
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 203
From: Menlo Park, CA
Registered: Sep 2007


 - posted March 01, 2010 10:39 PM      Profile for Roy Neil   Author's Homepage   Email Roy Neil   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
2. Was "Fail-Safe" previously cleaned with FilmGuard prior to running it through the Film-O-Clean on the projector, or was this the first cleaning? I've been wondering how well FilmGuard itself fills scratches on the film, and how much is due to the "wetness" of the wet get.

Thank you, I appreciate the kind compliment; Indeed I hope Film-O-Clean enhances everyone's film appreciation [Smile]

In order to visibly remove base scratches, it is first necessary to remove any and all dirt/debris from the scratch.

When Film-O-Clean is used with cleaning media saturated in FilmGuard, first the media works to remove the dirt/debris - and at the same time leave a micro thin layer of FilmGuard on the film. After the dirt has been removed from the scratch, the FilmGuard is now free to 'fill' the void. This micro thin layer is all that is required to greatly diminish base lines/scratches when projecting. Since FilmGuard does indeed evaporate albeit slowly, I always use Film-O-Clean whenever I project film. This helps to keep the prints clean and properly lubricated with a nice, smooth, even application of FilmGuard.

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Shawn DePriest
Junior
Posts: 2
From: Vista
Registered: Jan 2010


 - posted March 12, 2010 01:03 AM      Profile for Shawn DePriest   Email Shawn DePriest   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks for your replies, Doug and Roy!

I'm sold. I just listed my Kelmar on ebay, in hopes to offset the price of a Film-O-Clean. I would rather have the Film-O-Clean because of the improved gear ratio that Roy had previously described. It probably turns a lot easier than the Kelmar.

Roy, do you have a competitive trade-in deal?

Kelmar ebay listing below (in case anyone needs to clean 35mm):

web page

Again, thanks for all the info you guys provide, and for the great product!

Shawn DePriest
TOASTERHEAD!

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Editing my first super 8 feature, "Toasterhead"

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Douglas Meltzer
Moderator

Posts: 4269
From: New York, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted April 22, 2010 02:17 PM      Profile for Douglas Meltzer   Email Douglas Meltzer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I realize I'm a bit late with this, but look what's on the cover of Cine 8-16. No, not the Beaulieu.....

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Doug

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I think there's room for just one more film.....

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Eckhard Behme
Junior
Posts: 1
From: Berlin, Germany
Registered: Mar 2010


 - posted May 07, 2010 03:51 AM      Profile for Eckhard Behme   Author's Homepage   Email Eckhard Behme   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
@ Roy

Greetings from Berlin!
I purchases a unit from Wittner and am quite pleased with the results.

The FOC is used to prep 8mm films for digitizing, where surface dust has been a huge problem. The unit does remove almost all of it, making my transfers decidedly better.

As far as mounting is concerned, I decided to go a different route. My Meopta film-rewinder is relatively small and uses a wooden base. None of the adapters would work, because they simply placed the FOC too high.
So, I turned the unit on its side, facing away from me, with the two small rollers at the top, Then I used the body screws, to attach the unit to an alu angle bracket, which in turn was then screwed to the base board. Rock solid with absolutely no flexing.
For film-threading, I must lean over the unit, but that's a minor inconvenience.

I wind the film from right to left first, using a microfiber cloth and a cleaning fluid from the graphics industry. That also allows me, to feel defective splices or other film problems.
Then I wind the film back from left to right through the FOC and then place it in a zip-lock bag for transfer to the capture room. Works great!

Since the initial cleaning removes the scum, the FOC tape remains quite clean, allowing me, to reuse it six times. Even then, it isn't really dirty.

The only ongoing beef is that those finger screws tend to loosen during operation and need to be retightened quite frequently.
Unfortunately, I also work with quite a few sub-standard films (from the former East Germany), with worn out sprockets and often rather thick splices. Those films tend to get stuck in the tape. So, now I am thinking of also attaching an antistatic brush for just those films.

But overall, I find the FOC a worthwhile purchase!

Thanks and Ciao for now!

Eckhard

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8mm Schmalfilm-Archiv Berlin

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Roy Neil
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 203
From: Menlo Park, CA
Registered: Sep 2007


 - posted May 09, 2010 01:24 AM      Profile for Roy Neil   Author's Homepage   Email Roy Neil   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hello Eckard,

Welcome to the forum !

Im glad you are pleased with Film-O-Clean, thank you very much for your kind compliments.

That is a very interesting and creative method you have devised for utilizing Film-O-Clean with your transfers. Im not sure which 'thumbscrews' are loosening during operation, I can only think that operating 'flat' might be a factor. I would like to help you resolve this, perhaps you can contact me directly via email you can provide a photo or two to help me understand ?

Film that is in poor condition usually travels through Film-O-Clean without any difficulty, and (healthy) splices have never presented any problems. If the sprockets are damaged or 'marred' and/or any tears are present in the film these can easily 'snag' the cleaning media. We highly suggest repairing any damaged film prior to using Film-O-Clean.

Thanks for posting your thoughts on the forum Eckard - Im glad you feel Film-O-Clean is a worthy investment, I worked hard to try and make it that way !

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