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Topic: Another Part for Edwin

Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted March 17, 2015 12:33 PM

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Here is another part for manufacturing consideration by Edwin's company.
It is the sound roller pressure arm of the GS1200. It serves to mount the rubber pressure roller which bears down on the sound capstan. It is made from hard plastic material, with a metal boss pressed in where it attaches to the solenoid shaft. The boss has two metric threads for inserting and tightening two grub (set) screws.
As manufactured by Elmo these arms have a common problem of cracking around the metal boss. This loosens the arm a bit, resulting in lowered pressure on the rubber capstan roller, and WOW distortion of the sound.
If Edwin were to remanufacture this part, there is no reason he could not beef up the wall thickness of the plastic around the boss to correct the cracking problem. Indeed he could sustantially taper that sharp corner where the profile of the hub intersects the arm feature, which would really stiffen up the arm considerably. No area of this part touches the film, and a superior part finish is not necessary, except the two little holes which locate the metal shaft of the rubber roller, which may have to be precision drilled.

[ March 17, 2015, 01:56 PM: Message edited by: Paul Adsett ]

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted March 17, 2015 06:01 PM

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Great post Paul and one surely to capture the attention of Edwin's team.

Like most of these plastic parts with inherent built in flaws surely just intended as a future spare parts healthy sales incentive at the time of designing,now Elmo are well and truly no longer as far as these machines are concerned, posts like yours from an expert engineering perspective, can only help ensure the future fitted parts never need to be purchased or re designed in the again.

I do hope all of the plastic guides for the GS1200 become available soon. It may reinvent my interest in these otherwise excellent machines for my optical prints, that is to say, if they did manufacture all of these guides and if I could secure one or two spare motors beforehand from somewhere.

[ March 17, 2015, 08:33 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

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From: Bristol. United Kingdom
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posted March 18, 2015 03:50 AM

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I believe at one time Wittners produced replacement Head Pressure Plates. I assume like at lot of things they no longer can supply.
As Paul said, if the little grub screws are over-tightened the green plastic cracks and correct pressure on the magnetic heads is lost.

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Maurice

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Chris de Gruiter
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From: Tilburg, Nederlands
Registered: Mar 2015

posted March 18, 2015 03:59 AM

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These five parts are on our project list. The three parts at the top of the machine show signs of wear and the two at the bottom are likely to crack.

But I've one question about one the parts.
There is a screw hole (indicated with the blue arrow) at the top of that part, does anybody know where this is for? Because if it doesn't serve a purpose there no need to incorporate it in the new design.

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Chris

Engineer at "van Eck Video Services"

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
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posted March 18, 2015 05:29 AM

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Chris, having never owned one of these projectors I cannot answer that, someone who does have one of these will be able to tell you of its function.

What I will say is, if there is a screw in the guide,then it will need to be replicated in the new guide as it WILL serve some purpose or other for certain.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Maurice Leakey
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posted March 18, 2015 07:31 AM

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The Service Manual shows the hole but is quite silent on its function. No reference to it in words.

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Maurice

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Steven J Kirk
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Southern England
Registered: Apr 2008

posted March 18, 2015 07:39 AM

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Excellent idea. This 'sound pressure lever', don't know the correct term, I would buy a couple of these. All the ones I have DO have tiny splits like Paul says.

The second guide needs the second roller addition to be the best version.

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VistaVision
Motion Picture High-Fidelity

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted March 18, 2015 07:41 AM

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Very peculiar that is Maurice??

All 5 of these parts will be extremely popular Steven I am sure though the best initial film feeding guide shoe that can be purchased for these is without doubt the Machined aluminium (I think) ones from Wittners or the likes.

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Steven J Kirk
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posted March 18, 2015 08:02 AM

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Yes, the first position guide; there are metal versions from Wittner and FFR. They are slightly different. The Wittner ones I do have a pair in my main machines. They are steel and chrome-plated as far as I can tell. The FFR one has a V-shaped recess for film and may be aluminium. The Wittner is more like the original. Some also prefer the original plastic guide with a roller fitted at the back.

On the second guide I was fortunate to get my two guides changed to double roller and they work great and make logical sense considering how the film path goes. I think the ultimate second guide part would be metal, have the two rollers and flip up slightly with a satisfying click to enable removal of film easily.

[ March 18, 2015, 09:56 AM: Message edited by: Steven J Kirk ]

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VistaVision
Motion Picture High-Fidelity

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Andrew Woodcock
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posted March 18, 2015 08:09 AM

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Steven, put those ideas forward to Chris and Edwin, you may be onto a winner!

I think the guide would still need to be made from plastic for Edwin to manufacture at a price point that suits all, but may be able to incorporate the extra rollers also made by 3D tech to make the path "safer" from scratches.

The same may be necessary for the guide near the mag head which I know Dave Locke had to fit an extra roller before it was scratch free.

If these MKII versions of the guides had all of these modifications incorporated into their new design, that might well be the end of the scratch associated issues on these otherwise excellent machines. [Razz]

[Razz]

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Chris de Gruiter
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posted March 18, 2015 08:40 AM

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Are there any pictures available with those double rollers you guys are talking about, because I'm not familiar with those.

--------------------
Chris

Engineer at "van Eck Video Services"

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Alexander Vandeputte
Expert Film Handler

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From: Belgium
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posted March 18, 2015 08:53 AM

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Yes look in this thread.

http://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001885#000010

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Steven J Kirk
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posted March 18, 2015 09:48 AM

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This is the double roller mod:

As you can see the guide is shaped as if it should always have had two rollers.

With the FFR guide:

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VistaVision
Motion Picture High-Fidelity

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Paul Adsett
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posted March 18, 2015 02:12 PM

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That modified guide with the two plastic rollers is definately the preferred design configuration for any new parts. I would love to get this onto my machines.

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Andrew Woodcock
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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted March 18, 2015 02:16 PM

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It appears a very easy modification to carry out if you can get your hands on the two small rollers from an old donor ST1200.

Better still if Edwin can make the rollers! [Razz]

[Razz]

To me it would be better still if the middle section were missing altogether and a third roller was positioned in the middle of the other two so no stationary part of the guide comes into contact with the film as the passes through the top sprocket in a curve.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Paul Adsett
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posted March 18, 2015 02:31 PM

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Will someone please explain to me why the metal feed guide does not scratch the film, whereas the plastic one does. I am assuming that the answer is that the plastic feed guide wears down so that the guide profile no longer is totally relieved from the picture area of the film. I think someone, perhaps Dave Locke, also put a roller on the sprocket end of the feed guide, which is probably better than even the metal version of this guide.

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Paul Browning
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posted March 18, 2015 02:32 PM

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This is the mod on both my gs 1200's, I thought this was a mod that bill parson's had done?, perhaps not then, a good tweak by someone never the less.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted March 18, 2015 02:35 PM

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Perhaps Paul but my friend has used the metal shoe for many years and his films are perfect.

Yes it is due exactly to the reasons you say regarding wear to the plastic version.

Also Paul, see my latest post on Eumig 3000, I am sure the video will really interest you if you don't already have this on your discs.

[ March 19, 2015, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Steven J Kirk
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posted March 18, 2015 02:41 PM

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To clarify, the problem on both the first and second guide parts is that wear can create a flattened surface that can touch the picture area.

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VistaVision
Motion Picture High-Fidelity

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted March 18, 2015 05:06 PM

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As said Steven clarifying Pauls suspicions, but thanks for cementing this [Razz]

[Razz]

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Paul Browning
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posted March 19, 2015 04:27 PM

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Hi Chris, I now have some pictures of the lower guide, one used so you can see where the wear takes place on guide, and one with the modified guide with the roller in place. I have taken a measurement form the centre of the countersunk fixing hole to the centre of the roller fixing if you need that too. Let me know your email address please, as I have problems uploading pictures to the site still, I have asked a fellow member( Andrew Woodcock) who very kindly did this for me, but I'm not going to keep imposing on him to do this. So please let me know.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted March 19, 2015 05:42 PM

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Paul, its no trouble at all mate if you want one or two placing here. Just let me know mate, I'm up for another 30 minutes yet if you want it on for tomorrow morning?

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Maurice Leakey
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posted March 20, 2015 05:45 AM

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Going back to Chris' original question about the auto-thread lever and its hole, I have just look at a GS1200 and see that it is not a hole right through but just a round depression.
It certainly doesn't seem to be of any use, was it perhaps used in the mould for some reason?

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Maurice

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Chris de Gruiter
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posted March 20, 2015 06:20 AM

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The 3 parts that show signs of wear of modeled and will be send to the printer shortly. I've included the extra roller and I hope to be able to give you guys more information about its resistance against wear in about 3/4 weeks.

I'll keep you updated on the other parts of the Elmo GS1200

--------------------
Chris

Engineer at "van Eck Video Services"

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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posted March 20, 2015 06:39 AM

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Fabulous work there Chris!

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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