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Topic: The truth about Vinegar Sydrome!
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Dino Everette
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1535
From: Long Beach, CA USA
Registered: Dec 2008
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posted August 30, 2009 03:48 PM
Michael yes while the VS originally does start within a reel of film breaking down all on its own the gases that are being released are not neutral, but harmful gases that can then in turn speed up the breakdown of healthy film because it is changing the overall purity of the air that healthy film is breathing in...Think of it in terms of second hand smoke. While it is obviously worse for the person ingesting the smoke initially (ie: the film that developed the VS all on its own) the presence of that contaminant in the air can have negative affects on anyone else in the room that then breathes it in (ie: the other healthy reels of film). In part this is the same basis behind the comments about people not storing films in boxes. The only reason is the paper in the boxes can "absorb" things which in turn can be harmful for ones' films. For Instance if you had a film that developed mold, it could be spread by the air circulation to the other boxes which would absorb the moisture and would then create an outbreak (I once had to hire and supervise a special cleaning crew to take every reel of film out its can and clean it at the small archive I was working at, because we had an air conditioner leak over the weekend and the moisture in the air got picked up and transported through the vents to all of the shelves (which at that time were wooden, which caused the moisture to stick and soak into the shelves ) and by Monday it had turned into spots of mold all over the cans of film....
I think for most home collectors the paper boxes are perfectly fine, but when you get into the thousands of items you really need the vented plastic archival cans, because you can't necessarily just empty the room of everything should you have the presence of moisture, etc...
Also don't forget that the chemical composition of every type of film is slightly different not just between nitrate, diacetate, & triacetate, but literally every batch of Kodak triacetate is different in some way, mainly because they all got processed at different labs using different formulas, etc.... At my work we run films through an old style traditional tinting bath when preserving old silent movies, and we have to take our color formula and run 3 or 4 test passes with adjustments to match a color because as soon as the tint hits the emulsion it reacts completely different on each and every print because of the emulsion and processing variances....
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"You're too Far Out Miss Lawrence"
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Dino Everette
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1535
From: Long Beach, CA USA
Registered: Dec 2008
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posted August 31, 2009 02:42 AM
quote:
I'm wondering then, why there is ANY difference of opinion regarding VS being transmissible from print to print.
short answer - because unless something is as straight forward and as easy to understand as 1 + 1 = 2, it will be debated....
slightly longer answer would involve the fact that there are enough instances where a reel of film will sit right next to an infected reel and NEVER develop VS, providing the fuel for argument. This is in keeping with what I said about the fact that the film being acetate is only part of the equation, the other parts, such as the chemical mixture that was used in the processing of the film, is completely different every single time a film is processed, and this level of variance cannot be accounted for making the equation more something like "VS will contaminate other films in proximity UNLESS special inexplainable factors are present."
Here is a quote from page 14 of the IPI storage guide for Acetate Film)The Image Permanence Institute is the only place I know of who are routinely and specifically testing these types of arguments in relation to media storage over time.
quote:
Laboratory experiments show that acetic acid
vapors are readily absorbed by fresh film, and this will
lead to faster deterioration. In practice, however, it's
quite difficult to judge when a threat actually exists.
Where at all practical, films showing vinegar syndrome
should be segregated.
Basically what they are saying is that the controlled tests show that this is the case, but in real life situations there are many unpredictable variables that can make it less clear cut...The question then becomes is it worth the risk to keep your vinegar films in with your healthy films? If you think there is no risk then by all means feel free to treat vinegar films the same as your others, I was only trying to answer Kevin's question with information obtained from those studying this phenomenon, rather than try and push personal beliefs, or something..
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"You're too Far Out Miss Lawrence"
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Dino Everette
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1535
From: Long Beach, CA USA
Registered: Dec 2008
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posted August 31, 2009 01:53 PM
Michael
I didn't mean to sound put off by being questioned. Not in the slightest, but I did want to make clear, that I was not simply some guy that thinks he knows all about everything (HA far from it ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) ) I wanted to make clear that it wasn't my own philosophy on VS but the studies that are being done, I just was trying to point out that, if nothing else, the tests show that the spread is highly possible and very likely so why would you (as in anyone...not you personally) want to risk it. I have nothing against anyone, nor do I get my feelings hurt so easily....howzabout a cyber shake on it? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
PS John points it out the clearest, the biggest thing to consider is that no answer or theory on storage is truly time tested except the fact that for some reason some nitrate we know can last 100+ years and still be in projectable shape, beyond that we are all still guessing and learning as time passes.
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"You're too Far Out Miss Lawrence"
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UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
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I got some films off of E bay and they smell strong, might be a film cleaner smell, the films aren't sticky at all. I like the films you see, and some of them are very old! 'Scat Cats', which is a Castle cartoon (and is my favourite) has been dated 1945/47 according to my Castle reference book 'Castle Films: A Hobbyist's Guide'! ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
So I really don't want to bin em if I don't have to...
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