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Topic: Blackhawk 16mm Magnetic Sound?

Michael O'Regan
Film God

Posts: 3085
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Oct 2007

posted July 26, 2012 05:21 PM

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In follow up to something mentioned in the "What films did you show last night" thread, has anyone any information on why and how many prints Blackhawk released in 16mm magnetic sound?

It seems to me that there would've been little point given the fact that there were not many projectors with mag capability.

My catalogues show only optical prints.

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Jonathan Trevithick
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Gold Coast Australia
Registered: May 2012

posted July 27, 2012 06:51 AM

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I'd love to know too, Michael. My "Two Tars" print actually says "silent" handwritten by a previous owner on the can.
So,I was surprised to see a magnetic stripe on the film.

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Michael O'Regan
Film God

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From: Essex, UK
Registered: Oct 2007

posted July 27, 2012 12:42 PM

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Ah, then I expect the stripe was added by a previous owner. It wasn't sold by Blackhawk with the stripe.
Mystery solved.

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Brad Kimball
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Highland Mills, NY USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted August 22, 2012 07:28 PM

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I've never seen any 16mm mag striped film offered in US catalogs by any of the vendors. It would be interesting to compare the audio quality between the two.

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Winbert Hutahaean
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From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
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posted August 23, 2012 12:14 PM

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I think mag vs optical, still mag will be the winner.

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Winbert

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Paul Adsett
Film God

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From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted August 26, 2012 02:30 PM

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Super 8mm magnetic sound is far superior to 16mm optical sound, so 16mm magnetic sound is going to be even better.

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Tony Stucchio
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posted August 31, 2012 01:36 PM

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In the case of Blackhawk, they used 16mm optical projectors to transfer the sound onto the 8mm and Super 8 magnetic sound prints. So there is no way that the magnetic sound prints in that case could sound better.

I've always liked the cispness of optical sound, and I've had more than my share of Super 8 magnetic sound prints where the sound was less than desirable. In theory at least, an optical sound print should last longer as well, since there is no tape to wear out or get magnetized.

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Paul Adsett
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posted August 31, 2012 03:07 PM

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I agree with what you say Tony. Obviously if the recording source is a 16mm optical sound track, then the S8 magnetic track cannot sound any better. Fact is though, that 16mm optical sound only has a banwidth of about 60 to 8khz, whereas S8 magnetic sound has a bandwidth of 40 to 12 khz. Plus of course S8 has the cabability of stereo. Yes, we have all heard terrible S8 recordings, but that is no fault of the system, usually due to poor stripe quality or worn recording heads. A correctly recorded super 8 magnetic stereo track, with good quality stripe, will knock the socks off 16mm optical.
As for head wear, yes that is an issue, depending on the manufacturer. Elmo heads seem to never wear out.
As for the longevity of the magnetic track. I do not think that is a concern. I only wish that the colors would last as long as the mag track - most of my s8 color prints from 30 or more years ago have faded to red, but the mag tracks sound like new!

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

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From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
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posted August 31, 2012 04:31 PM

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quote:
an optical sound print should last longer as well, since there is no tape to wear out or get magnetized.

While magnetic sound head can wear out (although it very hardly to happen, as Hugh says), cannot optical exciter lamp get weak? or for sure misalign of the lamp will bring very poor sound quality.

But the most important, isn't that optical track will fade over the time resulting poor sound after years. That what I read in this forum.

In this case, optical track also has problems of deterioting.

My 2 cents,

--------------------
Winbert

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John Whittle
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From: Northridge, CA USA
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posted September 01, 2012 03:21 PM

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Black and white optical tracks do not fade, they have silver in them. The same is true of 16mm color prints. Technicolor IB prints have a silver track, Eastman Reversal 7387 prints and 7390 prints have silver tracks. Eastman color prints that are properly made have a dye plug silver retained by application. So even if the picture fades, the sound track wouldn't lose the silver and would still sound fine. Super8 prints with optical sound on color stock were never applicated--it was physically too difficult to get the sound development fluid on the film in the right position and washed off.

As for exciter lamps, they do fail, normally they burn out. Most are run under rated current so they last a long time and if they fail, you replace them and it has no effect on the print. A magnetic track that gets erased or magnetized ruins the print--and that was one of the big problems with Cinemascope Four track magnetic sound release prints in the 50s. One bad pass through a projector with magnetized sprockets would ruin a reel (actually every other reel since it wasn't detected until the next screening) of the print.

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Bill Brandenstein
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From: California
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posted September 01, 2012 07:14 PM

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John, long time no post. Are you well? You always bring superb technical knowledge to us. Thank you. Nice to hear from you!

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Paul Adsett
Film God

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From: USA
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posted September 01, 2012 08:47 PM

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How right you are Bill. Just when I think I know everything, John posts something that makes me realize how little I know! [Smile]

[Smile]

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The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
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Winbert Hutahaean
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From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003

posted September 01, 2012 10:58 PM

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John thanks for explaining.

But can you elaborate more in terms of sound quality (low & high frequency) between optical vs magnetic?

For me I have an experience that 8mm film with good optical soundtrack cannot create good bass (low freq) compare to magnetic one.

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Winbert

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Tony Stucchio
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posted September 04, 2012 08:28 PM

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For wear, I meant wear on the magnetic stripe on the print, not the head on the projector. But I agree that my oldest Super 8 magnetic sound prints have had no degradation in sound over the years. I do agree that a well recorded magnetic sound track will trump an optical track. Similarly (though off-topic), a top-notch Super 8 print will trump a dupey 16mm one for picture quality.

Now what's better for optical -- a density track or an area track? I have noticed no difference, but am amazed that the same equipment can reproduce sound for each.

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Winbert Hutahaean
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From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
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posted September 04, 2012 08:52 PM

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Tony sorry for my ignorance, but what is a density track and an area track?

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Winbert

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Michael O'Regan
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From: Essex, UK
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posted September 05, 2012 12:47 PM

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Winbert,

Scroll down for an explanation of the different types of track:
http://www.paulivester.com/films/filmstock/guide.htm

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