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Topic: Kodak layoff

Paul Adsett
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From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted January 29, 2009 07:35 AM

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Eastman Kodak in Rochester New York have just announced that they are laying off about 4,500 people, due to "plummetting sales of both film based and digital photography". I wonder if this will effect their super 8 product line. You have to suspect that super 8 is very largely supported by sales of 35mm film, and if 35mm is suffering super 8mm may be the first product line to bite the dust. So try and use 35mm roll film for still photography as much as you can, if you want to see this great company (and super 8 film)survive.

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Bill Brandenstein
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posted January 29, 2009 02:33 PM

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I didn't know they had 4,500 people left to lay off! [Wink]

[Wink]

May this not be the beginning of the end.

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Paul Adsett
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posted January 29, 2009 03:16 PM

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Rochester NY is the optical engineering center of the USA. The loss of Kodak would devastate the city. Somebody please say that it's not going to happen.

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Steve Klare
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posted January 29, 2009 03:51 PM

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My wife has family near Rochester and they have a saying up there:

-When Kodak sneezes, Rochester says "God Bless You!".

--------------------
All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Claus Harding
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posted January 29, 2009 06:56 PM

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Sadly, as inconceivable as the idea once was that names like Ford and GM could actually vanish, the notion of Kodak going out is suddenly a chilling question.

Super-8, 16, 35mm stocks.....dear god.

It is entirely too redolent of what is happening to audio tape production. Two companies left who do reel-to-reel tape, with very thin margins.

These are bad days indeed, especially for all the poor people who have no work, but also for the way that such a historical company is suddenly threatened, after the millions of hours of pleasure their products have given us.

I sincerely hope I am being very wrong in this post and that I am only being as depressed as the rest of you in reading that report.

Claus.

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"Why are there shots of deserts in a scene that's supposed to take place in Belgium during the winter?" (Review of 'Battle of the Bulge'.)

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Chip Gelmini
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From: Brooksville, FL
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posted January 29, 2009 07:34 PM

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We'll get through this recession even though it might not be easy and will have catastrophic results as this post very well indicates. But as things turn out better at some point, memories of this disaster will of course only fade as time goes on. Which with all due respect, is kind of ironic. [Big Grin]

[Big Grin]

Paul: I haven't forgotten you. I've been so blasted busy I haven't got to the post office yet to send the dvd. I am probably bringing it with me in April. Hope that's OK.

cg

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Paul Adsett
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posted January 29, 2009 07:43 PM

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Hi Claus,
Tonight I revisited the heydays of Kodak. I got out my trusty Bolex 18-5 standard 8mm projector and loaded on a 400ft roll of Kodachrome 2 home movies that I had shot 40 years ago. I am trying to be honest and unbiased here, but I can honestly say that what I saw makes my modern consumer level Sony digital video look like absolute crap. It's amazing how quickly your eyes and brain can adjust to a different level of picture quality. Having been shooting digital video for the last several years I have always thought it fine, very good in fact, and have become accomodated to its look. It's not till you go back and look at 8mm Kodachrome shot on a great camera that you realize how absolutely stunning it was. I now have hundreds of hours of digital video, which is mostly trash compared with the few hours of standard 8 that I shot almost 50 years ago. (Since shooting video my camerawork has gone to hell, why?- because tape is dirt cheap so you just dont take the care that film demands). This is Kodak's enduring legacy, and it makes you realize how perfect standard 8 and Kodachrome was for recording family memories in stunning detail, and how digital video is ,in many ways, a retrograde step.
Long may the big K, and film,live!

Chip, don't worry about mailing that DVD, just bring it with you.

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Claus Harding
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posted January 29, 2009 08:28 PM

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Hi Paul,

I couldn't agree more. The times I have actually shot 'home video' away from work, which is broadcast video, I am not impressed unless it is very late-generation HD camcorders, and even there....
My 70es Kodachrome Super-8 family stuff; it just hangs in there as if time has stood still.

I have three rolls of GAF super-8 stock (who on earth made that?) which I shot at some point in the late 70es.
They just keep reminding me of what the terms 'Kodak' and 'quality control' really mean when I see the grainy, bluish hue and general low quality for comparison.

Of course, then all the 35mm still stuff; my own pics and my wife's beautiful slides....

I will dig out some reels tomorrow and toast a glass towards Rochester and 'Big Yellow'. May this pass.

Claus.

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"Why are there shots of deserts in a scene that's supposed to take place in Belgium during the winter?" (Review of 'Battle of the Bulge'.)

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Bill Brandenstein
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posted January 29, 2009 09:46 PM

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This will help put it in perspective, so long as their executives are wise enough to see the significance of this:

quote:
The film, photofinishing and entertainment unit more than doubled its operating profit to $39 million from $17 million despite a 27% drop in sales to $652 million. Sharp cost reductions and lower retiree benefits were partially offset by a slide in consumer film sales and higher silver costs.

Full story at this link.

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Osi Osgood
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posted January 31, 2009 12:00 PM

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Is KOdak the ONLY supplier of Super 8 film stock?

The reason why I ask is because the German film labs are still going strong at the moment, (with a new feature being released right now!), and so I'm curious as to where they get thier own film stock at?

Where does the UK film labs get thier stock as well?

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Steve Klare
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posted January 31, 2009 05:34 PM

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Actually the commercial houses don't buy 8mm stock. They buy 16mm stock with Super-8 perforations, expose it double and slit it in half.

A neat thing about film is how easy it is to change it into something it didn't start as. As long as you can find 16 or even 35mm stock unperfed, you can slit and perforate all the 8mm film you want.

It all starts out as long, wide sheets anyway. Only afterwards does it get formed into the sizes we know.

--------------------
All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Winbert Hutahaean
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From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
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posted February 02, 2009 02:31 AM

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quote:
Is KOdak the ONLY supplier of Super 8 film stock?

The reason why I ask is because the German film

Fuji in Japan does still make it.

and I think the German film is made from Kodak stock....

For what Paul's concern, i would say that 35mm stock will not die in this near future. The reason is because pre and post production of movie using digital is still expensive.

Secondly, there are still plenty ordinary cinemas around the world compared to Digital cinemas. Don't ever think that a Digital cinemas is cheaper than the analog one. They are not using VP that we usually see... it is a very sophisticated one to reach analog standard.

To date, what the best Digital Cinema can reach is still below the analog cinema.

But who knows in the year of Star Trek.... it will come anyway,

cheers

--------------------
Winbert

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Raymond J. Santoro
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posted February 09, 2009 06:29 PM

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Hello all... as a native of Rochester now living in Az, I'd like to offer a few perspectives. When I was in high school it seemed everyone's career goal was to get into Kodak. The year I graduated in 1977, there were more than 62,000 employed at Kodak in Rochester alone. There are now fewer than 8,000 left.

Everyone knew somebody who worked at Kodak. Because I was into making Super-8's, I got a lot of neat perks. I knew some people pretty high up so whenever a new film stock came out they would give me a few test rolls to try out. They rolls were provided and developed for free and came in mysterious plain yellow boxes. I still have a couple of them if anyone is interested.

I used to have a friend take in my exposed rolls to get developed. He would drop them off at the employee's develop center and I'd get them in the mail 3 days later. Pretty quick for those days! I also took advantage of having sound-stripe added to rolls and even full duplicates made from my films.

Someone from Kodak gave me a machine that takes Super-8 film and transfers it onto video. It's a pretty cool machine because you can add soundtrack onto silents with it. I forgot the name of the thing, but I used it to transfer a lot of friends home movies onto video back in the 1980s. It looks and works similar to the Kodak moviedeck projectors.

At its peak Kodak had its own fire department, 4 zip codes, and miles upon miles of manufacturing capability. How the mighty has fallen. Now vast sections are empty. This past year, Kodak even imploded three of its own vacant buildings to take them off the tax rolls. Very sad.

Anyway, it was a great city to grow up as a young filmmaker!

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Paul Adsett
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posted February 09, 2009 08:47 PM

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Thanks for that great perspective Raymond. What a sad tale indeed, you have to wonder where it will all end if a great company like Kodak can no longer compete in the world economy. [Frown]

[Frown]

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Graham Ritchie
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posted February 09, 2009 09:28 PM

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Thanks Raymond, that was very interesting the name "Kodak" for many represented a quality product worldwide,"still is" its a terrible shame what has happened especially if ones job depends on it hopefully things will improve.

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Joerg Polzfusz
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posted February 10, 2009 08:30 AM

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Hi,

quote:
Is KOdak the ONLY supplier of Super 8 film stock?

Yes and no:

Kodak is the only film manufacturer left that directly slices, perforates Super8-filmstock and fills Super8-carts.
Nevertheless there are several other companies that use Kodak/Fuji/Orwo/...-filmstock as a source to make (=slice&perforate) their own Super8-filmstock and then fill it into Super8-carts. Nevertheless none of these companies produce their own filmstock. So when Kodak is gone, these companies will be limited in their choice of filmstocks, too.
Besides Super8 there are still DoubleSuper8 (with Foma producing their own Fomapan and providing it on DS8-daylight-reels, 16mm-daylight-reels, 2x8mm-reels, ...) and Single8 (with Fuji selling their last batches of Fujichrome R25N/RT200N - production has already stopped, supplies will last a couple of years, though).

Jörg

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Lars Pettersson
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posted February 10, 2009 12:35 PM

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"when Kodak is gone"

Let´s hope that´s NOWHERE on the horizon! Meanwhile, what we can all do is keep on buying their products, it´s the surest way to stave off that disaster.

It´s also very probable that ALL things filmrelated disappear roughly at the same time. As long as there´s strong demand for photochemical product (movies shot/distributed on 35mm film), super 8, 16 and 65mm will all survive. So hooray for all these blockbusters opening nationwide with 10 000 prints! [Wink]

[Wink]

Even here in Sweden it used to be movies opened with 10 - 15 prints, but now it´s fairly common for hundreds of prints to be struck for a big release (we´re talking a total population of 9 million here [Smile]

[Smile]

)
I believe even if all shooting/distribution of traditional film ended tomorrow, there would still be an -admittedly smaller- industry supplying film for all filmbased archives around the world.

Cheers
Lars

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Paul Adsett
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posted February 10, 2009 01:50 PM

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Thanks for those great Kodak ads Graham, they sure bring back the excitement of regular 8mm filming in the 1950's. [Smile]

[Smile]

We take zoom lenses for granted these days, but that one ad shows that zoom lenses were a major breakthrough feature at that time. A mixed blessing though, because I have always thought that the picture quality obtained with good prime lenses will always beat out zoom lenses- on both cameras and projectors.

--------------------
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Dino Everette
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posted February 11, 2009 01:24 AM

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At the AMIA conference 2 years ago there was a tour of what was left of the Kodak facilities in Rochester and it was a sad time but I don't think we will see the end of film in our lifetimes, just the end of film as any sort of mass market as the studios move towards digital delivery of their new movies.. I believe it is headed towards a true specialty market. I mean the Kodak layoffs are just part of the bigger problem that we all currently call the economy.
The key is to just keep enjoying film, and use it whenever you can. I volunteer at the Echo Park Film Center where they still teach kids aged 12-19 about filmmaking......get this........on actual film I know of people that still hand crank nitrate film, others who project outdated formats like 28mm. You can still shoot and get 9.5mm film processed from enthusiasts like ourselves and none of those film formats have existed commercially for a minimum of 30 years. There are multiple videos on youtube showing people how to record Edison style tinfoil and wax recordings and vinyl records are coming back in full force. I think it all comes down the perseverance of people like us, and hopefully a new group of kids growing up with a love for the celluloid.

--------------------
"You're too Far Out Miss Lawrence"

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Lars Pettersson
Master Film Handler

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posted February 11, 2009 01:59 AM

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Thank you Dino for an informative post, the Echo Park project sounds like great fun! [Smile]

[Smile]

Actually I come into contact with a lot of people who ask me things like "Surely super8 isn´t manufactured anymore?" and so on. If you don´t see it, it doesn´t exist, it seems. I mean they don´t see super8 carts in the local photo store and therefore conclude it doesn´t exist anymore. I shoot both super8 and 16 and have helped a number of members of the young generation (15 - 25) shoot super8, they can borrow a camera from me and I´ll help send the film to processing and get it onto DV-tape. They´re thrilled with the results. [Smile]

[Smile]

"Studios move towards digital delivery" I guess this is inevitable, but right now there are many issues that slow down this process. The theatreowners don´t necessarily want to buy expensive new VPs when they already have 35mm equipment that was paid for decades ago, and distributing 35mm prints give the studios an edge against the pirates as you need basically a professional film lab to put the contents of a 35mm print up on the Internet. The slow economy might actually help, as noone wants to invest (in new VPs for example).

Cheers
Lars

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Bill Brandenstein
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posted February 12, 2009 12:16 PM

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Thank you for the first-hand account, Raymond! How about a photo of those plain yellow boxes! Do you know what types of film you got to test? Anything fading at this point?

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Raymond J. Santoro
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posted February 18, 2009 09:45 PM

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When I am in Rochester next month I will bring some of those plain yellow boxes back home with me. I opened one up last summer and the emulsion was purple colored! The only other time I remember seeing a similaly colored emulsion was when Technicolor used to manufacture a Super-8 film cartridge in the mid 1970's.

Interestingly enough, in direct competition to Kodak was 3M Company, who manufactured their own brand of Super-8 film in Rochester. It was sold uner the Focal and Fotomat brand names. I knew people who worked there as well and could get us kids free film AND developing! The film hasn't held up over the years very well however, and much of it has turned a bluish/green hue. Looking at it on a reel from the side was great- you could tell right away what was Kodak and what was the 3M- the 3M alternated yellow and black, where the Kodak was simply black from the viewpoint.

Of course 3M in Rochester gradually phased out Super-8 film. Their last Super-8 product was a film for security cameras used in developing countries that took just one frame at a time, say once every 15 seconds. I was employed at 3M when this final Super-8 product was phased out, and I remember all the Super-8 slitting equipment was packed up and stored in their wherehouse.

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