8mm Forum: What is the most failure of super 8mm release (post 1985)

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Topic: What is the most failure of super 8mm release (post 1985)

Winbert Hutahaean
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From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
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posted February 23, 2013 04:03 PM

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OK guys, as Osi has noticed that the last postings are going to the opposite.

For those who are interested with that topic, we have several designated thread, Please post your opinion there:

Best Selling 400ft Digest

Best Selling Disney Feature

When we are talking about the success or failure of super 8mm prints, we have to stick with periodical time that what happen in 1970s must be different with 1990s. In 1990, the market has shrunken, therefore 400 copies in 1990 can be seen high compared to 1400 copies in 1970s.

Also we have to consider the length of footage will give different result. A 200' digest can be boring to death compared with its F/L or vice-verse. So that is the reason I limit the time and make two categories.

BTW, since I found in the middle of 1980s the market has also shrunken I have now widened the period to post 1985.

So can we get back to the track. What is your opinion for the most failure super 8mm prints post 1985?.

cheers [Wink]

[Wink]

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Winbert

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Hugh Thompson Scott
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posted February 23, 2013 06:26 PM

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Does this include the foreign markets Winbert as they made up quite a lot of the sales? The people who could throw light on
this subject would be the folk who staffed the distributors, as we
can only regurgitate the facts , figures from past periodicals.
Castle films must count their releases in the thousands, but who
would know the titles that didn't sell.The examples I have given
I know from the secondhand markets rarely if ever appear, and
from the comments made by Derek himself, makes one think they were not good sellers.perhaps the timing was wrong,being
too late.I had hoped for "Planet of the Apes", but didn't like to
ask.Also an important factor that really throws this thread, is the closure of the labs,it didn't matter if a particular film was
popular or not, because the prints were not available for sale,
hence the waiting time for prints just before DFS closed, that
must be considered.Coupled to the fact that in the UK, We have
been suffering recessions for years, so the monetary factor comes into the equation, do you pay the mortgage or buy that
print.So the title of a print not selling, has many variables.

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Winbert Hutahaean
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posted February 23, 2013 10:37 PM

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quote:
Does this include the foreign markets Winbert as they made up quite a lot of the sales?

But after 1985 what "foreign market" we are going to talk. Practically, no other foreign companies left (afaik) except a German labs printed films for certain order.

This is the reason I limit the time.

If we are talking back in 8mm film heyday, it will be too difficult.

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Winbert

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Hugh Thompson Scott
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posted February 24, 2013 03:25 AM

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Then even with the German's printing the odd film,they have to
be included and reinforces my point, that it could be the most popular film in the world, but if the lab facilities aren't there,it
renders the release meaningless.Bob Lane wouldn't have had the
success with "Star Wars" if video and DVD had been around and
the labs closing.The numbers of these prints sold in the final years
must be counted in single figures, and Germany is a good example, where films used to be sold in supermarkets & now
have disappeared altogether. I don't think we'll ever know the
true numbers sold to evaluate the prints that didn't.

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Tom Photiou
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posted February 24, 2013 06:11 AM

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wow how did those boys at Derann get that wrong,well corrected Hugh,
The biggest failure is a hard one to think about, i was looking throuh some of the 8mm catalouges and so many titles come across as "why release this", what about some of the last Walton prints like Man in the Iron mask 3 x 400ft?

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Osi Osgood
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posted February 24, 2013 10:46 AM

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Once again, the German Lab shouldn't be included, as they only print to demand and do not make prints willy nilly (OK, I like saying willy nilly), therefore to list them in this category wouldn't be accurate, as this topic deals with releases that were made, but didn't sell.

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Winbert Hutahaean
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posted February 24, 2013 11:02 AM

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Osi is quite right. a lab print is made based on order.

What I want to see here that a company might have made a mistake when chosing a title. And from this discussion at least we know "End of the Days" is one of them. But you guys perhaps still have more input, I will appreciate.

Now to extend this discussion, suppose you see "End of the Days" listed on Ebay, on what starting price you will place your bid? What about GBP 99.9/$149? Going once, going twice...?

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Winbert

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Hugh Thompson Scott
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posted February 24, 2013 11:28 AM

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Thanks Tom, trying to find which films didn't sell is like having a
game of cards with part of the deck missing.The info is very
limited as we don't know the whole story regarding collectors
and their collections, there must be thousands of people out
there that have never heard of this forum, but still have their films
including titles that were thought poor sellers. Until figures are
submitted from dealers of the past, we can only surmise among
ourselves with the odd title surfacing but no real proof of what
was sold,we don't know what was sold or in what quantities, coupled to the fact that in England, we were limited to one lab at Rank, which certainly didn't help.As for the film
"End of Days", myself I would rather have that than "Capt.America", and the waiting time for these prints are what
the big distributors had to contend with,which does have a bearing on sales.I have never had to wait for a print from DFS
because I didn't buy new prints after 2001.So we're chasing
our tails until facts & figures are present and that won't be anytime soon.

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Adrian Winchester
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posted February 24, 2013 01:23 PM

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Although I'd agree with Winbert that it makes sense to focus on British releases after 1985 as ones elsewhere are almost non-existent, there were a few releases in the second half of the 80s from one or two relatively obscure US distributors. I believe that one was Moorcraft who re-released some Thunderbird titles amongst other things. One example I have is an extremely rare one reel promo for 'Star Trek 4' (1986) that I obtained via the British company Dane Films, who offered some US imports that no one else in the UK seemed to have. It's video transferred to film and as I have never heard of another copy being sold since, I'd guess it was a low seller.

Considering that due to Derann the UK market was growing at the time, and this prompted companies such as CEC and Movieland to later produce their own releases, it's surprising that the revival didn't spark off more activity in the USA or Germany.

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Adrian Winchester

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Graham Sinden
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posted February 24, 2013 04:59 PM

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This is a very interesting discussion.

I personally dont wish to bother anyone but there are people out there, some are members of this forum, who do know some facts and figures but havent published that information.

I think End of Days is a good contender but as Hugh says we can only guess until we have some figures. What we possibly do know is that Derann often printed in batches of 50 so there might be 50 copies of End of Days but no more.

I think we should leave Captain America out of this because many collectors (I believe) are buying this because its new super 8 and are not bothered about the title. They just want it to support new super 8 prints. When collectors were told a new digest would be printed I dont think many were saying "I hope its Captain America!!" This films sucess is a one off and dosent add to the debate.

Hey, why not make a request to the freedom of information [Wink]

[Wink]

Graham S

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Osi Osgood
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posted February 24, 2013 05:18 PM

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How about the digest (or feature) of "Hawk the Slayer" (is that going back too early.

Talk about a CRAPPY movie, even with the presence of Jack Palance. I had the digest from Derann at one time, (and Derann even released this as a feature?!!! Sorry Derann, love ya but ECHHH!)!

MUST have been a bad seller ...

... was it?

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Hugh Thompson Scott
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posted February 24, 2013 05:22 PM

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I can recall LONE WOLF releasing "Special Effects" with Bryan Brown, and I'm not sure if the promised "Rockadoodle" ever made
it or "Physical Evidence" and "The Fourth Protocol".All were
going to be full feature releases the last time I spoke with Trevor.
The first feature I know did get released, as it has turned up on
used lists, but I feel it can't number many prints.
I think that Steve Osbourne is doing a sterling job in releasing
new material, it's just not to my taste,but there are plenty of folks that enjoy it, so more power to 'em.

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Adrian Winchester
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posted February 24, 2013 06:12 PM

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Hugh - Is the film you're referring to as 'Special Effects' actually 'FX - Murder By Illusion', which was released by CEC? I recall seeing Lone Wolf magazine ads mentioning 'Physical Evidence' but I'm unaware of physical evidence of prints existing!

Osi - I believe 'Hawk the Slayer' didn't do too badly. Derann were absolutely right to release it because after 'Raise the Titanic' and 'Who Dares Wins' they circulated a questionnaire, at least at an Open Day I went to, indicating various titles they could release (I think all were ITC or Rank) and invited collectors to indicate which they would buy. 'Hawk the Slayer' came first and was hence the next release! I know it's not a great film but I suspect several people - including me, as I voted for it - hadn't seen it but liked the idea of a sword and sorcery film on 8! But despite its faults, the film has something of a cult following (particularly in some European countries) and from around 2009 to 2011 there were concerted efforts made to get a sequel into production.

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Adrian Winchester

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Hugh Thompson Scott
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posted February 24, 2013 07:48 PM

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That's the one Adrian,I knew there were effects in there somewhere.I still have the flyer somewhere from Trevor, where
he goes to great lengths in his description of these films,which
is a pity if they didn't make it."Hawk", I have a copy myself, I
didn't buy it,but was given a lot of film etc, and this was among
them.I have seen worse, and it does benefit from a "spaghetti
western" type score and Jack Palance!
Then there were the releases from MOVIELAND, which being a
small operation Roger Lilley couldn't compete with the larger
distributors, but he did acheive great quality.Like I said before,
unless we have actual numbers of prints struck, it's guesswork.
I know that I stopped buying new prints,mainly because it was
Disney stuff that was being done,and they aren't to my taste,
coupled to which there were better titles on 16mm.

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Lee Mannering
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posted February 25, 2013 04:26 AM

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The saddest thing I ever witnessed in 1980 was standing outside the Moviedrome shop in Kilburn and looking at an emptying shop window as they were closing down. They were formerly Collectors Club of course and a hotbed of film hunting for me then at a time when you could buy a feature for £55 and a 200ft sound short for £6.95 whereas Derann were charging £8.95 for a 200ftr for instance. Video was biting hard into the 8mm cake and for me watching Terry’s shop close was so sad.

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Winbert Hutahaean
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posted February 25, 2013 01:04 PM

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quote:
it's surprising that the revival didn't spark off more activity in the USA or Germany.

Adrian, this is a matter of economic survival and (as we can see in many occasions) smaller companies are more easily to survive because of their efficiency.

This can be seen in today's example that Kodak has collapsed while a smaller company like Wittner can still sell super 8mm stock. That's why I was once predicting if Kodak released its formula and machine to Wittner, E100D will still have a long expectancy life.

Read this a relatively new article:

The last supplier of carbon paper in Canada

This small company could beat bigger companies in producing carbon paper in this today's photocopy machine and computer technology. We will be questioning who need these papers but it seems there are few companies/institutions do still use it.

In 1990s when shipping has been so much easier and faster compared to in 1970, it was better for people like Steve Osborne in the USA to just import films from UK rather than releasing his own print. And this is what make Derann to survive.

If it is not because expanding to other products that are not related to films, I would say that Derann would still be exist today.

cheers,

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Winbert

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