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Author Topic: Searchers Vinegar print on ebay
Brian Stearns
Master Film Handler

Posts: 487
From: Lexington
Registered: Jun 2013


 - posted December 08, 2013 02:06 AM      Profile for Brian Stearns         Edit/Delete Post 
would anybody buy this? I know its IB Tech but no telling how long you would be able to enjoy it,kinda bittersweet.

whats the most you paid for a vinegar print?

Ebay item

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5895
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted December 08, 2013 02:32 AM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have my doubts about this item. I have never known an I.B. Tech print to develop vinegar syndrome.
I don't think it is an I.B print as the seller describes it as having black perforations, now again, I have never seen an I.B. print with black perforations. I.B. prints are quite clear in this area as this is the space where the continuous word TECHNICOLOR is printed.
Buyer beware.

--------------------
Maurice

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Brian Stearns
Master Film Handler

Posts: 487
From: Lexington
Registered: Jun 2013


 - posted December 08, 2013 03:20 AM      Profile for Brian Stearns         Edit/Delete Post 
yeah, thats what I was thinking rare that an IB tech has vinegar.I would not spend 100 on a vinegar print. I want films that I can watch years to come and not mess up my other films. living in an apartment space is limited.

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David C. Lucidi
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 127
From: Glenolden, PA, USA
Registered: Nov 2013


 - posted December 08, 2013 11:36 AM      Profile for David C. Lucidi   Email David C. Lucidi   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Couple of things:

1.) Yes, IB Tech can and does develop vinegar syndrome. Search google and you will find this happening on other forums. The only kind that cannot get vinegar is Mylar stock.

2.) My IB Tech print of "Robin and the 7 Hoods" has vinegar syndrome. Initially had a VERY strong smell. I was able to treat it with Film Renew and Vitafilm, so the smell was GREATLY reduced....but when it was first discovered it smelled like a fresh bottle of vinegar (my wife thought I broke a bottle of vinegar, and she was on another floor! That's how strong the smell was). It (the smell) is almost gone now thanks to the film treatments, but alas they say there is no "cure". That said, it projects fine, takes up fine....so, I'm not throwing it out.

3.) Technicolor prints come in many formats, not just with Technicolor printed along the edge. Check this link for *five* examples, including the "TECHNICOLOR" along the edge version: http://www.paulivester.com/films/filmstock/ (By the way, none of my Technicolor prints have TECHNICOLOR on the edge, for what it is worth).

People tend to freak about vinegar prints, saying it "spreads" to other prints. I am not saying this cannot happen, but can state from my own experience: Of my 100+ features (and about 20 shorts and 40 cartoons), only 1 has vinegar -- all stored in the same area (albeit all in containers). Maybe it is more likely to spread if the films are all out of containers, I dunno...

I say if its a print you REALLY would like to have, and is otherwise NOT able to be found...buy it. So long as it's not warped, or turning into jelly -- just soak it in one of the film treatments (I did it for 90 days), let it air out, re-treat it if the smell comes back, and enjoy it for as long as you can until it goes south. I discovered the vinegar syndrome on mine 3 years ago, and so far the smell has stayed away and I just projected it 2 months ago with no issues.

Then again if it's a common title and easy to find, pass on this and hold out [Wink]

Here is one link with a picture of extreme warping....you can google for other more extreme examples (all to stay away from): http://ian-partridge.com/vsynd.html

Hope this helps! [Smile]

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Gerald Santana
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1060
From: Cottage Grove OR
Registered: Dec 2010


 - posted December 08, 2013 12:52 PM      Profile for Gerald Santana   Author's Homepage   Email Gerald Santana   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Depending on the film and content, it's up the buyer to decide how much is too much for a vinegar print -- and what condition it's in.

I've bought film from this seller, he buys from me. He's fully disclosing what the print condition is. Technicolor can develop VS, and his description matches what is called a single rank print with black perforated edges -- a double rank is clear. From my observation single rank prints are harder to find and the color is very rich.

I bought a faded Eastman scope print of Woodstock with VS for $99. It plays fine after having it for a couple of years, the previous owner started rejuvenating the film. When I received it, it had a chemical VS smell. After storing it open reel for two years, the smell has dissipated. I'll never sell this film so, at this point $99 seems like a very good deal for a film I'll continue to treasure.

The new owner of The Searchers will be in charge of maintaing the film to bring it back to life and keep it projectable. There's a fine line between archivist and projectionists. It's up to the archivist to decide wether it's worth it or not. And from my experience VS will not spread to other films unless they are kept in the same enclosed container.

--------------------
http://lostandoutofprintfilms.blogspot.com/

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David C. Lucidi
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 127
From: Glenolden, PA, USA
Registered: Nov 2013


 - posted December 08, 2013 01:16 PM      Profile for David C. Lucidi   Email David C. Lucidi   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I should add, to my comment AND Gerald's, that when I said "albeit all in containers" I meant each film had it's OWN container (using the plastic kind that store 3-4 reels of 1600', or the fiber kind that store larger reels).

And I 100% agree with Gerald, so long as the vinegar print is by itself, I think the chances of "spreading" are very slim....as my own experience has shown.

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Michael O'Regan
Film God

Posts: 3085
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted December 08, 2013 02:26 PM      Profile for Michael O'Regan   Email Michael O'Regan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
1. IB Tech dye transfer prints do sometimes have black sprocket area.
2. The seller is a well respected collector who knows exactly what he's talking about.

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Bill Brandenstein
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1632
From: California
Registered: Aug 2007


 - posted December 08, 2013 03:39 PM      Profile for Bill Brandenstein   Email Bill Brandenstein   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Some of my tiny collection of IB material smells of VS. Still not sure which tactic I'll use to prolong the life.

I've done a little business with that seller and agree you're in good hands.

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Michael Mc Dermott
Junior
Posts: 15
From: Goshen, NY, USA
Registered: Jul 2013


 - posted December 14, 2013 02:00 PM      Profile for Michael Mc Dermott   Email Michael Mc Dermott   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I also know the seller. Have been to his house many times for film screenings and have also purchased films from him. Completely honest and a long time collector. I also have Tech prints with black sprocket area.

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Jeff Missinne
Film Handler

Posts: 69
From: Superior, WI USA
Registered: Nov 2012


 - posted December 18, 2013 05:52 PM      Profile for Jeff Missinne   Email Jeff Missinne   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
For those who are really curious about how IB Technicolor 16mm prints were made, please look up the following oddball item on ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/16mm-IB-TECH-1956-TO-YOUR-HEALTH-BRITISH-Cartoon-w-Heads-Tails-MORE-Movie-Film-/201002003599?pt=US_Film&hash=item2ecca72c8f

A 16mm IB Tech cartoon on 35mm stock. This is how Technicolor used to have to make 16mm prints, and why they cost so damn much. They had to make a 35mm print, develop the sound track, then reperforate it and shear off more than half as waste film.

This was the outcome of a "gentleman's agreement" (or "devil's bargain") between Technicolor and Eastman Kodak that lasted from the late 1930's into at least the 1950's. Eastman agreed to stay out of motion picture color wider than 16mm, except for selling long rolls of 35mm Kodachrome exclusively to Technicolor, who marketed it as "Monopack Technicolor," with Kodak processing it for them; and Technicolor agreed to not process any film narrower than 35mm. But when producers demanded Technicolor prints in 16mm, they came up with this as an "end run" around their agreement.

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William Davis
Film Handler

Posts: 39
From: Fenton, Michigan USA
Registered: Nov 2013


 - posted December 24, 2013 09:30 AM      Profile for William Davis   Email William Davis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It has always been my understanding that along with Mylar stock KODACHROME also never gets vinegar?????

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Adrian Winchester
Film God

Posts: 2941
From: Croydon, London, UK
Registered: Aug 2004


 - posted December 26, 2013 01:26 AM      Profile for Adrian Winchester   Email Adrian Winchester   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
David - I'm curious about your remark "I was able to treat it with Film Renew and Vitafilm" and wondered why you used both? I don't suppose you give it a complete soak in both?

--------------------
Adrian Winchester

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Michael O'Regan
Film God

Posts: 3085
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted December 26, 2013 12:45 PM      Profile for Michael O'Regan   Email Michael O'Regan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
It has always been my understanding that along with Mylar stock KODACHROME also never gets vinegar?????
If it's acetate it is prone to VS.

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