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Topic: NEXT BFCC
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Claus Harding
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1149
From: Washington DC
Registered: Oct 2006
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posted October 30, 2008 02:13 PM
I didn't want to start in on this, but Christopher's comments made me sit down and write.
I don't feel it makes sense to say that because digital media is "the future", the shows should be altered to have video more prominently represented.
I say this as someone who has not had the opportunity to attend, living in the US, but the shows, like this forum, are there to celebrate and keep alive a CERTAIN FORM of home entertainment, that is, the film-based kind.
(I speak as a film collector who also has a large HiDef plasma, Blu-Ray player, and 5.1 Surround, and I work as a broadcast TV cameraman, just for perspective.)
None of us live in oblivion when it comes to the advance of digitally-based home media, but the message at the conventions, much like here, should be "...we still like to show film" and I gather that's overwhelmingly been the tone of it at the BFCC, and rightly so.
We have this board as our main meeting space, a few other 'sounding posts' and the conventions. The meets should reflect the outlook of the core constituency, especially in this case:
Chris, like many, talks about digital home entertainment. It already has lots of outlets for collectors and enthusiasts.
We, on the other hand, are keeping the one end of things alive that few others are: real film.
It is expensive, cumbersome, fragile, irrational...and we love it. That's the part where Chris misses the point: we don't care if it's "doomed" (as some see it) because we will keep the flag flying for as long as possible.
Because we know, once it is gone, it will never return. A unique way of home entertainment will have passed, and with it, a whole attitude and tradition, a sense of history, something that will never be able to be said about any digital formats, no matter how many incarnations we go thorugh.
An attitude of attention to detail, mechanical skill, patience, and the ability to appreciate a process that laid the foundation for mass storytelling some 100 years ago.
A tradition of truly paying attention, and knowing about the people in front of and behind the camera. With fewer and fewer people reading books, this is evaporating fast.
If one had to come up with a phrase to summarize this:
We are not about the future. We are about honoring the past by keeping it alive today.
I think that is perhaps where Christopher and some of us differ in our outlook regarding this issue.
In this case, to recall the famous McLuhan quote, the medium truly is the message.
Best,
Claus.
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"Why are there shots of deserts in a scene that's supposed to take place in Belgium during the winter?" (Review of 'Battle of the Bulge'.)
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Paul Adsett
Film God
Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted October 30, 2008 04:53 PM
I think the BFCC organizers have got it right. The emphasis is on film . But the special DVD productions by Keith Wilton add an enormous interest level to the show, simply because they are so unique and specifically aimed at film collectors. That is not to say that DVD afficianados will find nothing of interest there, on the contrary, I am sure many such people find the whole film scene very interesting and so should not hesitate to attend. There is no film vs DVD bias at the BFCC. Everybody there recognizes that nearly all film collectors are now also into DVD projection. Keith himself is, of course, very deeply involved with all aspects of producing specialist DVD's for marketing. But film is king at the BFCC, and it needs to stay that way.
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The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj
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Christopher Way
Film Handler
Posts: 51
From: Bournemouth, England
Registered: Oct 2008
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posted October 30, 2008 07:36 PM
I cannot believe that some of you are saying I do not see the point, or patronising me as if I do not know the difference. I am in no way implying that anything should be reduced down, dropped or whatever you imply from the BFCC. I was giving an opinion on the future of Home Cinema, and the technology that it brings, and a possible way of increasing numbers to the BFCC by adding this type of imput to the event.
It is obvious by your comments this will not happen.
It is comments like this from a member; "Fortunately, the likes of this guy are not common-place at Ealing...thank goodness!", that cause problems, and is uncalled for.
Thanks for your comments anyway, Chris
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Christopher Way
Film Handler
Posts: 51
From: Bournemouth, England
Registered: Oct 2008
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posted October 31, 2008 08:17 AM
When one has spent the past week in an effort to unite two forums with the same principles in mind, and at the same time offers suggestions and opinions, and only suggestions and opinions to increase attendances at the BFCCs. One does get slightly peeved off when one is being nearly accused of trying to kick out the reeled film side of things, or have a digital takeover. My emphasis was on increasing the numbers attending, and only that, not a takeover, thus keeping the whole network of Film Collectors going for a lot more years.
Incidentally, DVD, Blue Ray, HD, all methods of showing film, and collected by many. Why then does it not come under the auspice of Film Collectors. Just a thought.
See you at the BFCC, ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Regards, Chris
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Steve Klare
Film Guy
Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted October 31, 2008 09:33 AM
Quote:
"Incidentally, DVD, Blue Ray, HD, all methods of showing film, and collected by many. Why then does it not come under the auspice of Film Collectors?"
Simple: no "film" involved.
Let's say you had a fellow who collected the great works of literature on microfilm (...for some bizzarre reason).
Is he really a "Book Collector"?
Part of the allure of collecting books is getting really old ones in good shape, maybe even with an autograph inside the front cover. As you start to get into later and later editions and then paperbacks and books on cassettes you are moving further and further away from that experience.
You can find an original RCA Victor Disc of Enrico Caruso, or get the exact same recording much cheaper on CD. One is a collectible, the other just a convenient way of enjoying the music.
Both have value: but one is not a direct substitute for the other.
PS: Somebody with a framed digital knockoff of the Mona Lisa on his wall is not an "art collector" either, and in this case the value is approaching zero!
PPS: Many people have lots of DVDs. Are they all film collectors? If not, then why not?
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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...
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Christopher Way
Film Handler
Posts: 51
From: Bournemouth, England
Registered: Oct 2008
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posted October 31, 2008 01:29 PM
I think it is an inevitable case of, we beg to differ. Films on reel are movies when viewed, projected or whatever, Films on DVD are movies when viewe4d, projected or whatever. I still cannot get it across to most of you that I am not trying in any way, nor want to bring down the business of Film Collecting, Collectors, or Collections. As I said, I made a suggestion, S U G G E S T I O N, that to increase numbers at the BFCCs, would it not be a good idea to add on DVD and Digital Film, Projection, etc.
You have in one or another all agreed that numbers are down, you have all agreed that numbers need to increase to keep the BFCC going. If after all these years you still have not found more to attend, the my suggestion is a feasible one.
It is obvious that a large number of you, in particular those who do not attend, do not want to increase the numbers. End of story.
I will still be there in May (if anyone wants to continue) ![[Smile]](smile.gif) ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Regards, Chris
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Christopher Way
Film Handler
Posts: 51
From: Bournemouth, England
Registered: Oct 2008
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posted October 31, 2008 08:28 PM
Steven I beg to differ, DVD are robust, moreso if looked after as much as a spool of film. Film deteriorates also.
Michael, the majority of those who attend the BFCC are there not only as film buffs, but to seek out and buy new equipment, film to show where, in their Home Cinemas. Like those we have seen on our forum and others.
I have tonight just got in from watching a fabulous film, probably one of my favourite epics, "Lawrence of Arabia". This was shown on a large drop down screen, with the Columbia logo showing behind the curtains with the intro music playing, and the curtains drawn back. The film went through to its intermission, and continued after a short break, with the curtains closing and opening. Just like a real time film viewing, showing, or whatever.
Of course is was not a film really, why, because it was on a disc, yes a DVD. Played from a DVD player, through cable to a projector, with sound through a surround sound system. This was shown at Eddie's, the Administrator of the Jubilee Regal, a professional cheif projectionist (retired), who knows a great deal, and has taught me a great deal about the same. He has not got one spool of film, all DVDs. Oh yes, and he was original a member of the Silvo Screen Forum, who set up the Jubilee Regal when the former closed down.
Good night gentlemen. See you at the BFCC, with a name badge.
Regards, Chris
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Steve Klare
Film Guy
Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted October 31, 2008 10:42 PM
The service life problem with DVDs is twofold:
Since they don't have the data redundancy that for example an Audio CD has, surface defects tend to derail the signal, and permanent defects become fatal. Hopefully as the data density increases this redundancy will be added, but the existing formats will never have it.
So a fingerprint on a frame of film may pass by unnoticed, but the same mark on a DVD can bring the show to a screeching halt. This is mostly what I meant by robustness.
The second problem is the planned obsolescence of video fomats and equipment that means entire systems of media and players are on their way to the dump from the moment they are designed. This means even if the new player is backwardly compatible, the new media won't be, so you are obligated to buy new players in order to see new recordings.
-This is not so much a matter of technical improvement as a marketing strategy to keep us buying more and hopefully on credit too. If we have a depression next year this kind of thinking is part of the problem: too much money borrowed to buy things soon worthless.
I also think this is reflected in too much of the hardware available. It simply doesn't last: it's not supposed to.
We in the world of real film avoid this issue of obsolescence by being as obsolete as we are ever going to be, and being cool with it!
[ November 01, 2008, 03:07 AM: Message edited by: Steve Klare ]
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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...
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Christopher Way
Film Handler
Posts: 51
From: Bournemouth, England
Registered: Oct 2008
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posted November 01, 2008 04:52 AM
I appreciate what you are saying Steve, but at the same time have to disagree with your assumptions. For ages now VHS and associated equipment has been out of, withdrawn from the market as no longer viable, because of the DVD intervention, and its improvements over the years.
One must realise that if one is a DVD Film Collector, and chooses to show films through that format, then I would say, as I do, maintain my stock by regular cleaning of both discs, and equipment, and proper stowage of the same. No different than you guys do with your 8mm, Super 8mm etc. Myself, and as probably most other DVD users religiously clean the disc before and after use. It becomes a natural course of preservation.
Sometimes one does receive a corrupt DVD Film, but is that not par for the course in any hobby. I would not believe that some of you spooled film entrepeneurs have not received a damage film or a film that is not upto par in the past.
I would say the same strategy would prevail spooled film projectors if they were still be produced in the same sense. Designed to ensure that the customer has to buy another in the future. Again, as you know your system, we on the DVD Film front know ours. You can buy now, not from your High Street stores, but from reputable companies that deal entirely in the Home Cinema business, with associated information on what to buy, and what will last. You mentioned in a previous post about Blue Ray. What is Blue Ray, another format produced to give a better performance. In my humble opinion, it will be a long time before BR takes over from the normal DVD, and that most of the equipment available with HDMI, HD etc, will enhance the performance of a normal DVD.
Obsolete is a very good workd Steve. Having answered your post, I find the longer this goes on tit for tat, Reel v DVD, we are getting no where, and the whole initial subject of the the thread, BFCC as disappeared in amongst the differences. Therefore, I suggest to the administrators if I may, that this thread now becomes obsolete, and closed.
Regards, Chris
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